Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
We invite you to join us as we talk about the world of leadership during times of complexity.
Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
S3: E10 Unraveling the Abilene Paradox: Why Do We Go Along with Ideas We Don't Support?
Ever find yourself silently screaming inside while outwardly nodding along to a group decision you're not really on board with? Join us, Greg and Mark, as we pull back the curtain on the Abilene Paradox and dissect its fascinating hold on group dynamics. In this episode, we peel back the layers of why we often conform in group settings... even when it goes against our better judgment. Journey with us through the twisted byways of decision-making, where the desire for harmony can lead to collective misadventures, whether in the boardroom or at the family dinner table.
With anecdotes and laughter, we'll share strategies to champion honesty and encourage diverse viewpoints in your everyday interactions. Discover how to create an honest feedback culture, the value of letting ideas simmer before reaching a verdict, and the gentle art of empowering the more reserved voices among us. We don't shy away from tough topics like the effects of hierarchy on speaking up, or the importance of laying down structured protocols for more inclusive and effective decision-making. So, whether you're leading a team or navigating family choices, tune in and learn how to steer clear of the unanimous journey to nowhere, with our usual dose of humor and real-life experiences.
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You're listening to Lead On with Greg and Mark, brought to you by the Pennsylvania Association of Intermediate Units. Join us this season as we engage in conversations on leading on through times of complexity. Now for your hosts, Greg and Mark.
Speaker 2:How's Mark? You Mark today, wonderful, yeah, and you, I'm great. You're always great. If that was any better, I'd be Dr Mark Hoffman. Well, listen, listen to this the world the no comment.
Speaker 3:You got me there. I was going to say something snarky, but I know. But. I think, you're great yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, things are great. You got that look about you.
Speaker 3:There's a glow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a glow. There's a glow, radiate, you're radiating.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm radiating. That doesn't necessarily mean good things, right? Well, no, I think it could be. It could If there's a good glow. Hey, have you ever been in a meeting? Many, Okay, right, lots of meetings. Some of them you've probably led, yes, right, and the ultimate outcome is not something that you really support or like, and you didn't speak up in the moment.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Now let's talk about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, give me an example, or you know, anonymize it to protect the innocent.
Speaker 3:But you know, maybe not even in this role. Go back to a current or a previous position.
Speaker 2:excuse me, I had to do with the technology solution that we were looking for.
Speaker 3:All right. Okay so describe the situation. You got 10 people sitting around a table.
Speaker 2:I got 10 people sitting around and I got you know there's a mix of technology curriculum. You know, and this was the curriculum technology solution. I understand. So I didn't speak up enough in it and I was a participant. I was not leading the conversation Fair enough, so a couple of people had suggestions. I didn't agree with those suggestions but I went along with the suggestions because of the group dynamics.
Speaker 3:I understand. Do you think that?
Speaker 2:was groupthink. Or no, it wouldn't be groupthink, it wouldn't no, it's well. I think what happened was one person brought up this idea. Everybody thought it was, you know, like the best idea, yeah, and I just went along with it.
Speaker 3:So you didn't play the contrarian.
Speaker 2:I didn't, and then I walked out of the meeting. This is what bothered me. I walked out of the meeting and I'm reflecting on it. I'm like I should have spoken up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, did you? Was it a culture where people would have a conversation like a meeting after the meeting to talk about the meeting and say all the things they wish they had said during the meeting?
Speaker 2:Uh, yes, yes, that would happen.
Speaker 3:We call those parking lot conversations Parking lot conversations yes. The meeting. After the meeting right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's like a dynamic that happens in families, it happens among friend groups, of course, it happens at work. This idea that people fail to agree or they fail to disagree, right, this, this idea and this isn't groupthink in the sense that group thinks where everybody actually believes in their heart that the solution that they're adopting, or the, the, the strategy that they're taking, is the right strategy, and maybe you know they've been um, convinced accordingly. Uh, what we're describing here is where you know in your heart, or you know in your gut level, or you know intellectually or you know rationally that this isn't the right solution but you go along with it anyway because you think everybody else wants to go along with it. That, my friend, is not groupthink. That is known as the abalone paradox, one of my favorite things in leadership to think about.
Speaker 3:Abalone paradox, abalone right A-I-L-E-N-E as in abalone, texas. And if you, if you've worked with me for any period of time, uh, you've read this article several times. This is one of those articles I dust off and bring out every once in a while because I I see organizational dynamics in here everywhere. It was actually written originally by a management professor at uh, gw named Jerry Harvey, and the reason why it's called the abalone paradox is he tells the story of his family. He's sitting on his in-laws porch in ab? Uh in in a in a small, dusty, hot Texas town in the middle of summer, and one of them says you know they're, they're sitting around drinking lemonade on the porch. There's no air conditioning, right? He says why don't we? Uh go to lunch in abalone? You know, miles and miles away on a dirt road, no air conditioning in the car, and everybody on the porch says well, that's a great idea, let's go get lunch in abalone, right? So they all get in the car and, secretly, nobody really wants to go to abalone and they're just happy doing what they're doing. Yeah, because it was suggested. They think I better go along with this.
Speaker 3:So again, that group think because they don't actually want to go. They get there, they have their lunch. It's miserable, it's hot, it's a dusty road, the food's average. They get back to their porch a couple hours later and they say, well, that was a nice trip to Abilene. When they know it really wasn't. And someone says, no, it wasn't, I never wanted to go to Abilene. And they say well, if you didn't want to go. Why don't you say something? Because I didn't want to go, I only went because I thought you wanted to go. Well, I only went because I thought you wanted to go. And then it turns out that nobody actually wanted to go to Abilene, even the one who suggested it. Even the one who suggested it, right, because nobody spoke up and said now, let's not do Abilene right. It was a failure to agree.
Speaker 2:And this happens all the time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's the Abilene paradox, Whether you're at work, whether you're at home.
Speaker 2:I think it probably happens even more when, like this example, you're home with your family, sure, and then they're like well, dad wants to do this, so we go along with it, or mom wants to do this, okay, we'll go along with it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the only antidote to the Abilene paradox is to speak up, is to say no, I don't really think we should go to Abilene Okay, so let's translate this into meetings.
Speaker 2:So what can we do to ensure our people are speaking their mind, or have an opportunity I should say have an opportunity to speak their mind?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, there's a lot of things that you can do and they're not all easy. You could say that we're gonna appoint people to be contrarians and devil's advocates and you can say your job for this meeting, greg, is you're gonna be the devil's advocate in poke holes and everything right. That's not. Sometimes that's inauthentic. What really I think you have to do is you have to create a culture over time where people feel comfortable being the contrarian.
Speaker 2:I love it. That makes perfect sense.
Speaker 3:If there's no trust in your organization or there's not a culture where disagreement or alternate explanations or devil's advocacy is appreciated and acknowledged, people aren't gonna do it. That's right. And you wind up on the road to Abilene a lot more frequently than an organization where it's encouraged to be a little contrarian.
Speaker 2:And then you have that whole 45 minute drive thinking about I don't wanna go there, yeah, whose idea was this? And a hot day, I don't wanna do this. And you get there and you have a bad meal and you're traveling back 45 minutes with heartburn.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like you. Just we were talking about where we're gonna get a quick lunch right, and you said Mexican or identity like Mexican you wanna go get Mexican. I was like sure, whatever, if I secretly didn't wanna go get Mexican, you would have said no, I'm saying Abilene Parra.
Speaker 3:I was like sure, greg, because you're asking me, but the Abilene Parra, but you don't wanna go get Mexican, you're just searching around for something that you think I might like. So we both wind up at this Mexican restaurant, right, and it's like gosh. You know if I really wanna be here.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying that's what happened, but I'm just trying to think, yeah, but it could happen.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know something that I've learned to do, because I feel like I've read this article at least a hundred times Again. It's the Abilene Paradox by Jerry Harvey, and you can find it online in lots of different places. I'll actually say in a meeting hey, just to be a contrarian here, right, like literally point out to people that I'm being the contrarian on purpose, and then I'm not trying to break things, I'm just trying to raise a different point of view that maybe I agree with right. And then ultimately, if the group wants to do it, the group wants to do it, but at least I'm not getting in the car with them. Or if I am, then everybody knows I'm sort of not a willing participant. What do you do to control?
Speaker 2:for this. Well, I really liked what you said, that you established a culture whereby people feel that they can speak their mind, that they can say what their opinion is. I think it's sometimes when you look at the actual meeting Mark you need, you said sometimes you could say you could preface it with I need some feedback. Whatever it may be good, bad or ugly, give me some feedback. Or when, at the very end of the meeting, you could say here's what we discussed. Does anyone see any issues here? Or is there anything someone wanted to say but didn't? I think just doing that and opening that door for people to do that and it being part of like an actual part of your agenda, is to say, make sure that they have some feedback.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Two other suggestions are to maybe not make the decision right away, to say this is where we're at right now.
Speaker 2:This is just a brainstorming session, right?
Speaker 3:Or yeah, after we brainstorm, here's what we're gonna do, and why don't we sit on it for 48 hours? If anybody has any feedback, either let the group know or come and see me or have conversations privately. So if you've got a group of five people and you've all decided that you're gonna go to Abilene for lunch tomorrow or later, why don't you check in with each of the five? Cause sometimes people will tell you things that they're thinking privately rather than publicly because they're afraid of being seen as the contrarian. You know, we just had a discussion. They don't have the psychological safety.
Speaker 2:So, mark, I have to tell. I'll give you an example. Something happened just before the break, right? We're talking about opening day in service and it's so nice to be back face to face, right? But the question was should we alternate? Because it's a lot of work to be face to face for 1,200 employees, right? So all of the logistics with it is a lot to organize. Should we alternate virtual every other year?
Speaker 3:Yeah, remote locations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we brainstormed and I made just a pros and cons list with everybody and I kept passing it around to them and it was literally just four of us. But Special Ed Director was key. We had the Curriculum Director and we had my assistant there, so I keep passing the paper around.
Speaker 2:Are we missing anything going through? And I told them. I prefaced it by saying we do not need to make a decision today, but we're gonna need to share this with the in-service planning committee. So that's what happens. So it just shows you that you don't always have to come up with a decision in a meeting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or that if you do come up with a decision that you're willing to let it sit for 24 to 48 hours, that just because you decided at some random cabinet meeting on a Monday in December that you're gonna do this, maybe you revisit it again in January or you check in with those three people and say, hey, we agreed to this at the meeting. Have you given it any additional thought? People might open up and then if people are willing to tell you things privately that they're not willing to say in front of their peers, then you have to dig down into the culture to figure out what's going on there.
Speaker 2:Where there's some kind of breakdown there, then yeah, and it's normal right, the ebb and flow of team dynamics.
Speaker 3:that's totally normal the ebb and flow of the mood that people are in. People might not be speaking because they're not paying attention. Maybe they're checking their email, maybe they're distracted, maybe they're carrying something from home.
Speaker 1:Not being objective right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or maybe they're just not engaged and that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with them. It just means that we're humans and so maybe the conversation didn't happen at a good time for the person that needed to hear it and so, because they're not engaged, they don't feel comfortable chiming in. Or maybe their boss is in the room and they're afraid of disagreeing with their boss.
Speaker 3:Maybe it's not the person who's facilitating the meeting. That's the problem. It could be that someone who else is around the table is that other person's direct reportant. God forbid that they might have a weird culture with their boss where they're afraid to say something because their boss is in the room and they'd hate to contradict their boss in front of their boss's boss.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, so it's the people in the room that may be inhibiting them from contributing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm often reminded by my team that protocols are often helpful, Like having a protocol for how we're gonna make this decision. Having norms to say this is let's remind ourselves of what we think before how we're gonna make this decision, let's make the decision and let's revisit it. There's something about the safety of the protocol that gives people to say, hey, listen, per number four here I wanna just raise a point as opposed to me being for me, it's me honoring the norms, it gives a little bit of safety there.
Speaker 2:Well, what I like, you're talking about the safety piece. So in the article they talk about the choice to follow one's conscience or go against it to please the group produces cognitive dissonance and could involve personal risk to either relationships or their career Right or both Correct. So I do like that and it's again. Mark, I think you hit. You really hit the nail on the head with going back and talking about totally forgot what I was talking about.
Speaker 3:You're just talking about the paradox.
Speaker 2:The paradox yeah, and coming back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I have the. You have a summary of the article that I shared with you, just to get your juices flowing here, if you look at the full article and again, you can find this online the Abilene Paradox with Jerry Harvey. He says the symptoms of the paradox. He says there's six symptoms of the paradox. Okay, yeah, number one organization members agree privately, as individuals, as to the nature of the situation and the problem facing the organization. So, each person around the table, they all agree privately of what's wrong, right? Yes, in this case, none of them wanna leave the porch, right? Nobody wants to go to Abilene.
Speaker 3:Two organization members agree privately, as individuals, as to the steps that will be required to cope with the situation of the problem they face. In this case, let's just stay here. We all agree that we're happy here. How do we keep that happiness? We stay here. Three organization members fail to accurately communicate their desires or beliefs to one another. In fact, they do just the opposite Ironically, that's the paradox and thereby lead one another into misperceiving the collective reality. Each member of the abalone group, for example, communicated inaccurate data to the organization. Yeah, let's go. Even the person who offered it as a suggestion didn't want to go, didn't want to go.
Speaker 3:So, even though they all agree privately that everybody wants to stay on the porch, they all agree publicly that they want to go. You know, 30, some miles away, four, with such invalid and inaccurate information, organization members make collective decisions that lead them to take actions contrary to what they want to do. So, privately, they all agree they want to stay on the porch, but they're going to abalone, which is not the porch. As a result of taking the actions that are counterproductive, the members of the organization are frustrated, angry, irritated and dissatisfied with the organization. They take it out on the boss, the organization, even though they're complicit. They're complicit, they should have spoken up. They should have spoken up, but so something wasn't right. They weren't paying attention, they didn't communicate. There's no psychological safety, there's no norms in place, something's not right. There's a disconnect.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and finally, if organization members do not deal with the generic issue, the inability to manage agreement, the cycle repeats itself with greater intensity. Is this resonating with you? It really is. There's another example in here about secret cows. You know like there's this data thing happening at this organization. Everybody knows it's a loser in terms of that's not sounds harsh, but in terms of how much it costs and the outcomes they're getting. But everybody thinks that everybody else likes the project, and so no one's willing to say publicly that it's not working. And so everybody knows it's not working. But everybody thinks that everybody else likes it or wants it to succeed.
Speaker 3:And so therefore no one's incentivized to speak up and say this isn't working. And you know, all it takes is one person to say this isn't working.
Speaker 2:Everybody will think oh yeah, I'm so glad he said it. Oh my God, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 3:God, what a relief to hear somebody else say that. Yeah, so how's this resonating?
Speaker 2:with you. So it really is. So a couple takeaways that I had is number one when you're having a meeting, figure you know, know in your mind what is the purpose of the meeting and actually just be you know, state that to your, your meeting participants. The purpose of this meeting is to blank it blank, blank, blank, blank. You know whatever it might be and then you know the outcome that we're hoping for at the end of this meeting is you know so, so they know what the purpose of the meeting is. But then the only the other thing and I think this goes through with modeling is creating the culture, and I think it also takes time. As you develop these relationships over time, they're going to figure out that, oh, it's okay to speak up, it's okay to disagree with the boss, it's, you know, those kinds of things, that. But that happens over time, it doesn't happen immediately.
Speaker 3:Well, and people need to see that when somebody else disagrees with the action is or what the reaction is right Is there safety in speaking up and speaking truth to power or whatever you know.
Speaker 3:However you want to phrase it Now, it better be true, right. If you're going to speak truth to power, you better. You should be accurate, right. But you should also have the safety to be wrong and and to know that you're not going to get your hand slapped publicly because she said something right or wrong. The facilitator of that meeting whether it's your boss or not, it should be open to the, the feedback, and I think a lot of the responsibility to build on your point is on the facilitator to create the norms or the expectations at the start of the meeting about what the intentions of the meeting are there, you go and you know, if you don't have those norms, you should say, hey, we should all feel free to speak our mind here.
Speaker 3:Hey, and just in case we don't know each other that well, we're going to get to a nice breaker. We're going to get to know each other. We're going to, we're going to learn to relate things to each other so we communicate. And also we're intentionally going to build in some contrarian, devil's advocate components here, where we're all going to sort of pick apart what we know to be true and we're going to make a recommendation but we're not necessarily gonna act on it, because we don't need to act on it until you know next week, if anybody has any concerns as they come and see me privately and then you got a diagnosis. What's going on there? If people are willing to say things privately, they're not willing to say publicly.
Speaker 2:There's some comfort in that too, because everything I think a lot of people just think inherently that we show up to a meeting, we need to come up with a decision. When you, when you preface it by saying we do not need to come up with a decision at this meeting, you're really it's. I think it's comforting.
Speaker 3:I do because then you could really speak your mind, work through it, but then, you know, be able to revisit it another time well, exactly, you know, there's this desire as humans to belong, and so if you see that everybody else is doing something, you say, gosh, what's wrong with me that I don't want to? I what? Why do I think differently, even though secretly, everybody is probably thinking, yeah, that's one of those things. As a teacher say, there's no such thing as a stupid question, right, if you have the question, chances are at least one of the person's got the same question, asked the question, that's right, and ultimately it's the same thing. You asked the question. Wait, what's the homework and when's it do? Right, you know somebody else? Well, thank God, somebody asked that question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, cuz I didn't know either. But then there's the whole art of reflection. Yeah, you walk away from this meeting and you're like, oh, I never thought of this. And then you can bring it back to the table the next time you meet yeah, I was listening to a podcast.
Speaker 3:It's BBC thing that Oliver Burke was doing about being busy in distraction and and and being a sort of a contrarian and a In a realist rather than an optimist, and he was talking about how our brain is actually programmed to reflect. Right, we go, go, go, and it's often in the shower, as you're sleeping or when you're on a walk. Yeah, you're disengaged from the tasks that you're trying to solve. For that you actually come up with a better solution. And so if the facilitator, this decision-making, can build in a little bit of runway, chances are the Natural reflection that people will do while they're not engaged in the task will ultimately result in realizations or Epiphanies. Yeah, that will help it influence the decision.
Speaker 2:So what that? What that tells me is that, as leaders, we need to think about the timeline. When is like? Think about deadlines, right, yeah, and now wait until the end the hour to have these meetings? Yeah, before the deadline is, you know, before that due date. That's definitely a good takeaway for me from this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so this is the abalone paradox and it's by Jerry Harvey and Again, it's sort of a dead horse at the or where I work, because we refer to it often. But yeah, a lot of times I see myself get caught in here and then you go back and I reread it and I go yeah, gosh mark, you really got caught in the abalone paradox, or gosh mark. You know, the team got caught in the paradox because I didn't facilitate a process when I allowed for the either the psychological safety or I didn't allow for the safety. That, or I didn't put in norms. That said, this is how we're gonna make the decision and allow people the opportunity to breathe and reflect. That's right, and so I encourage everybody to get a listen and this should be something you know. If I leave this printed out, on my desk.
Speaker 3:I'm sort of a leadership nerd but like this is something I refer to often.
Speaker 2:I gotta tell you I'm also gonna use this in my personal life too, with my family. Sure, you know when we're coming up with deciding where we're going. I mean, this case is a restaurant, but it could be so many other things, of course.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, like where you want to go on vacation, or, yeah you know, or watching a movie. I didn't want to watch that movie. I watch movie because I thought you want to watch a movie. Right, those are lower stakes things, of course, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:All right, sir, we say we wrap it up. How about you wrap it up for us today, switching around?
Speaker 3:All right, everybody. Thanks for listening. And what do we say? What?
Speaker 2:are we gonna make it a great day?
Speaker 3:You.
