Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
We invite you to join us as we talk about the world of leadership during times of complexity.
Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
S4: E1 The Elegance of Errors: Steering Through Life's Imperfections with Laughter and Leadership
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Welcome to Season 4!
Take a seat and prepare to get candid about our less-than-shiny moments. We're tearing down the facade that mistakes are anything but normal, especially when you're at the helm.
Through personal tales and a hearty dose of self-reflection, we're examining the unexpected beauty in owning our blunders. It's a heartfelt reminder of how direct communication and a simple apology can turn a misstep into a step forward.
From childhood tales of hammers meeting things they shouldn't to the more complex blunders in our professional lives, we discuss how these slip-ups shape us.
Alongside the laughter, we underscore the importance of psychological safety and the power of owning our errors, especially as leaders, for nurturing trust and sparking innovation.
Join us for an engaging session that promises to leave you reflecting on your own faux pas with a fresh perspective and maybe even a chuckle or two.
Check out all episodes of Lead On with Greg & Mark on your favorite podcast platform!
You're listening to Lead On with Greg and Mark, brought to you by the Pennsylvania Association of Intermediate Units. Join us this season as we engage in conversations on leading on through times of complexity. Now for your hosts, Dr Mark Hoffman.
Speaker 3Dr Gregory Coons. It's season four, cuatro, season four. Wow, amazing, wow. How did that happen? I don't know how that happened A little.
Speaker 2Season four. Wow Amazing.
Speaker 3Wow, how did that happen?
Speaker 2I don't know how that happened.
Speaker 3A little experiment, yeah, and it turns into something that Just kept going. Just kept like the energizer Just kept going yeah.
Speaker 2And a friendship built over time. Yeah, yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's good stuff. You got new glasses, or what so these are my old man reading glasses.
Speaker 3I noticed them on a zoom the other day.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm just trying to look the part, you know.
Speaker 3Yeah, All right. So yeah, I like them. So when did you decide it was time to switch to reading glasses?
Speaker 2I just uh, you know, I just had to. You have to embrace it, so they're just on full time. You have no time.
Speaker 3Yeah, no, I just just when I'm reading and stuff. So you're obviously you're farsighted. Yes, interesting, okay, yeah, I'm the opposite, I'm nearsighted. Oh, I made the decision like fifth grade. It wasn't worth putting my glasses on and off all the time, right, so I just I just put them on and haven't taken them off since, so you owned it back then fifth grade baby.
Speaker 2It took me to age 48 to own it. I'm much more.
Speaker 3I'm much more confident my glasses wearing you really are. But you know, after a while it becomes a part of your identity yeah, it is so like I see myself in a mirror, something without my glasses on. I'm like who is that person? Yeah, and you look a lot smarter with them on. Well, it's what I need, right? It's part of the charade. It is that I am, that I'm playing here. Fake it till you make it, fake it till you make it, and when and when you can't fake it no more you put some glasses on Love it.
Speaker 2Oh so I had a nice drive out here, A lot of traffic, but what's up with people not using turn signals? I know I've told you that's my pet peeve. It is your pet peeve.
Speaker 3It comes up regularly actually, let's psychoanalyze this a little bit.
Speaker 2Well, it just bothers me. How hard is it to put a blinker on?
Speaker 3All right, so let's talk about this. So you're driving here. Yes, who didn't use their blinker today? That's got you so worked up that it's the first thing out of your mouth.
Speaker 2So about three different people.
Speaker 3Tell me the story.
Speaker 2So one of them is they pulled out in front of me, so I had to slam on my brakes and then it's always like this they take the next turn and they took the next thing and they didn't use their blinker you know it's interesting like I often get annoyed by people who pull in front of you when there's no one behind you.
Speaker 3Yes, like they they risk it by gunning it to turn right onto a road that you're traveling straight on, exactly, and then you're just like well, there's nobody behind me. If you waited 13 more seconds or three more seconds, I know you would have had a clear runway. Like what are you doing this?
Speaker 2to me for and then they go below the speed limit yeah, and they pull into mcdonald's or something, like they're in a rush to go well, maybe they had to go to the bathroom yeah, maybe that's what I don't know so.
Speaker 3So let so you notice that people were struggling with the turn signal today yes, I, I.
Speaker 2It just seems I don't know if it's a bucksucks County thing or what it's every time I come out here. You're going to, you're going to go to that level. I'm going there, you're going there.
Speaker 3My favorite story that you've shared about driving is that you let someone go through a four-way stop sign.
Speaker 2Oh, that's right, I did they gave you the look and he goes yeah, what's the them go through? Yeah, because I, because I was nice and they wanted you know, some people I think it's a control thing sure, like they want to know that they're in control. And no, I'm telling you to go first. No, you know, I'm telling you to go first.
Speaker 3No, I'm telling you to go first, and that became what bothers you about the blanket though is that is. Is that the the control thing you want? Control?
Speaker 2no, I just want to know where they're going like. Otherwise, like this person who pulled out in front of me today, they pull out in front of me. I don't know that I've taken the next turn, so I had to slam on my brakes twice. Sure, and you have a car that when they pull out in front of me.
Speaker 3And your car tells you if there's like an obstacle in front of you.
Speaker 2It starts beeping.
Speaker 3So your car was beeping at you today.
Speaker 2It was beeping.
Speaker 3Like crazy. So your car thinks that you did something wrong. So now I need to know Okay, when this happens to you, yes, are you the kind of person that gestures to the driver that's driving poorly?
Speaker 2I don't gesture in the way you think.
Speaker 3No one-fingered salute.
Speaker 2No one-fingered salute.
Speaker 3All right, okay, so are you the one that does the hard stare as you drive by? I do, you do the hard stare. I do the hard stare, yeah, yeah and then what's the reaction of your kids or your wife when you do the hard stare? Do they get upset? Oh, my wife gets so mad.
Speaker 1And do you know?
Speaker 2what I've gotten. I'm more of an aggressive driver because I have an hour commute each way now. So I've become more of an aggressive driver. I think, when you're on the road, that often that's what happens.
Speaker 3Well, you think that you know. Nobody else knows what they're doing or whatever right exactly exactly. I'll tell you that I was an aggressive driver in my teen years. It's probably just the testosterone that's flowing through a 16, 17, 18 night. It changed for me when we had kids and I had a car seat in my car with with little people and I just learned to pull over if someone was tailgating me old mark you know, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 year old mark, I would have tapped my brakes, I would have been right, right.
Speaker 3As soon as I had kids in my early 20s, I pull right over, let the person go around me.
Speaker 2Well, now that my kids are driving, I'm right back in the old habits.
Speaker 3You're back in the old habits, yeah, yeah, that's yeah, it's funny, though I still have found myself just pulling over, just like whatever. Yeah, yeah, I don't know that I I find that there's satisfaction in pulling over and letting the person pass oh, that's a little passive-aggressive there, dr hoffman, I know it's very, I don't see it as a sign of weakness, like I'm conceding the lane.
Speaker 3I see it, as you're so bad at driving, I'm going to let you go first because I don't want you to hit me okay, that's how I choose to frame it.
Speaker 2Of course, yeah, you're.
Speaker 3You're definitely getting older I'm getting older and though, ironically, I think I'm just a little bit younger than you. So if I'm getting older, what does that mean about you?
Speaker 2Thanks for that. I appreciate that You're welcome. That was a nice backhanded compliment.
The Importance of Making Mistakes
Speaker 3I think it might have been. We're going to talk about mistakes today.
Speaker 2Huh, yes, I thought about this how important mistakes are in a leadership journey right Now. There's different levels of mistakes that can be made. But you know, I'm thinking back to my childhood. I made a lot of mistakes as a kid. I was just, I was a hyperactive kid. You know, growing up One of my mom's favorite stories was I went into the bathroom with a hammer and I hit the back of the toilet and I smashed it. It was the porcelain. I smashed it and my mother said well, you know why'd you do that, greg? And you know the five-year-old Greg was like I wanted to see what it sounded like.
Speaker 2That's what I said. I wanted to hear what it sounded like. Did your brothers put you up to that? They, I, they may have between Paul and Steve they may have, oh my.
Speaker 3God, even though Stevie, we know, is the nicest coons.
Speaker 2Yes, even though Stevie is the nicest coons. Now, yeah, Stevie has a side, though sometimes a little sneaky, Does he?
Speaker 3have a T-shirt that says the nicest coons with an arrow pointing up.
Speaker 2No but I'll tell you he is always there for us. People know All of my friends. They're like yeah, he's definitely the nicest coons there. There's no comparison.
Speaker 3Even though he very well might have put that hammer in your hand, he may have, I think we should investigate this.
Speaker 2And then there was another one that I think is just my stupidity at the time. We had one of those old metal fans and here you can see all my fingers here. I stuck two of my fingers in the fan just out of curiosity and my brother Paul pulled my hand. So I have my brother Paul to thank that my fingers were still intact, but you could still see the scars here on my fingers. So maybe Paul isn't the nicest guy. Paul's definitely not the nicest guy.
Speaker 2He saved your fingers, but he did save my fingers, so I'm very appreciative.
Speaker 3Paul. All right, so let me ask you a question. All right, so those two stories resonate. We've all done things like that, yes, but let me challenge you just a little bit. Okay Are?
Speaker 2those mistakes. I consider them accidents, but I also think lapse in judgment is probably the best way to say it.
Speaker 3It's a lapse in judgment.
Speaker 2Yeah, I was tiny and I was learning right.
Speaker 3Isn't that how you learn not to touch a fire because it burns? That's right, right, right. The old cliche, you touch hot stove one time yeah, that's, that's right.
Speaker 2And I think, as parents too, we, we let our kids, I think it's a good parenting skill to let your, your kids, have calculated, take calculated risks right Sure.
Speaker 2And some a lot of times, cause they'll learn from these mistakes as they're going through them. So I was, I was thinking about that and I said it translates really well to leadership. So I did find this article that talked about the importance of making mistakes. Again, just you know, for our listeners, we're we're talking about you know the mistakes that you'll make in the during the learning curve, when you're, when you're going in a leadership position.
Speaker 3So well, gosh and I'll, I'll go one further. I mean, I think mistakes and the inevitability and the likelihood of mistakes doesn't decrease with tenure. I think you just make different mistakes, that's true.
Speaker 2Yes, right.
Speaker 3Yes. So I agree with the learning curve. They're more frequent and perhaps they're more easily correctable. Let's hope. But you know, as you get into your position right, I think the potential for mistakes is still there, especially if, as the leader, you're not surrounding yourself with people who are willing to tell you the truth.
Speaker 2Right the honest feedback.
Speaker 3Sure, if you don't have a culture where your team or your colleagues feel comfortable telling you what's up, the likelihood that someone doesn't pull your fingers out of the fan decreases right. If there's no safety, it's like the emperor has no clothes.
Speaker 2You know that analogy? Yeah, great comparison.
Speaker 3Emperor walks around, says he has the most expensive, finest robe, and then the little kid says he's got nothing on, but everybody else was playing along because they were afraid of what the consequence would be by calling the emperor out. If you have that culture and your staff don't feel comfortable telling you something's not right here or your fingers are going to get cut off, then your fingers are going to get cut off. They are so. I think so much of this deals with the psychological safety that you create or that is created in the culture where you work.
Speaker 2I like that very much. So you're talking culture, you're also talking about your team and making sure, like we've talked about this before, that it's a safe space.
Speaker 3It's a safe environment where they can feel free, you know, just sharing their feedback whether it's good or bad Sure, and of course it has to be shared in a respectful, collegial way, right, but it has to be honest and it has to be quick, right, because you need to be able to pivot. Right To use that COVID word pivot. Annie McKee, have you ever read Resident Leadership by Annie McKee and?
Speaker 2Richard.
Speaker 3Boyatzis.
Speaker 1Yes, I have.
Speaker 3I'm not sure if that's how he says his name, but it's timeless stuff. She talks about something called CEO disease.
Speaker 1Have you ever heard of that?
Speaker 3No CEO disease is the top. Well, it's a description of what happens when people are afraid to tell the leader the truth or they only tell the leader what they think the leader wants to hear. They say the leader now has CEO disease. Nobody wants to catch it right so they either stay away or they are afraid to tell the leader the truth, and the leader is therefore more likely to make mistakes. So I mean, it's a vicious cycle.
Speaker 2It is, it is because it'll self-perpetuate.
Speaker 3Yeah, so you have an article here. You want to tell us about it.
Speaker 2So it's called why Making Mistakes is Essential for Growth as a Real Leader. All right, and it's by Inigo Gallo out of the Business School University of Navarra, so a couple of things that were brought out in this article that I really like. It talks about how you can learn both from mistakes, both personally and professionally. I obviously shared some things like personally that as a kid I made a lot of mistakes. I continue, as an adult, to make a lot of mistakes, but the most important thing about mistakes is what you learn from your mistakes and how you change your behavior and from lessons learned.
Speaker 3Yeah, I mean he uses words like humility, transparency and confidence under the context that quote. Mistakes are a part of business, just as they are a part of life. It sounds so obvious. It really does, but. But the fact that there has to be articles and books written about this means that we struggle as humans to accept the fact that when we're at work we're not perfect. That's absolutely correct. Especially if you're in a leadership role, you're supposed to know all these things.
Speaker 3You're right ironically, we have the imposter syndrome, which is the voice in the back of our head that says we stink at everything we do. So there's this irony, right? Yes, there's a pressure that we're supposed to feel like we are a failure because we don't know what we're doing, and then there's the same pressure that we're not allowed to fail. So let's talk. So why did this resonate with you?
Embracing Mistakes for Growth and Innovation
Speaker 2So why it did is because with mistakes, okay. One thing I thought as a leader, obviously we make mistakes. There's different leadership styles. Some leaders will make a mistake and not admit that they made a mistake or not make it public. There's other leaders that embrace it and actually put it out to the public. Have you ever had to do that, where you have to stand up in front of a group of people and say we messed up?
Speaker 3Well sure, yeah, yeah, all right. And not only that, not only that I've messed up, but that someone that works for this team has messed up. You have to make a phone call and say listen, I represent this organization, I represent this team, right? I want to acknowledge that I'm aware that this happened and I'm not going to hide behind it. We're going to make it right. Yes, no, I mean, I really appreciate that question and I'll tell you that it's with the comfort of being in this position for a long time that it gets a lot easier.
Speaker 3I'll tell you my first administrative job, I was in my mid-20s. I would like to think now, looking back, 20 years later, that I was the same way, I am sure.
Speaker 1Greg that.
Speaker 2I was not.
Speaker 3I am sure that a subtle mistake that I would laugh about today. I probably thought I was going to get fired for yes.
Speaker 2Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, because we were just so guarded back then and and I think the more longer you're in a position and the more leadership skills you build, the more comfortable you get with this.
Speaker 3Well, absolutely. And then also, I think there's comfort in the reaction that people get. People are usually refreshed, or they feel refreshed when someone acknowledges a mistake or they take ownership.
Speaker 2That's right, like so. You look at the team. I remember talking to the team and said we messed up on this and I take ownership of it. This is what happened. We need to learn from this. I got so much more credibility from that team that I put it out there, yeah.
Speaker 3I did this yesterday actually, Okay.
Speaker 2Let's hear it.
Speaker 3Just for the sake of honoring everybody's confidentiality, I'll keep it vague. Yeah, someone received an email when they should have received a phone call and the phone call should have come from me, and you can imagine any number of contexts where that's the case. So imagine that you're expecting a phone call from a colleague or from someone else, yes, and instead you get a generic email and I found out about it. You know why I found out about it. This person had the courage and we had a strong enough relationship where they said to me I was disappointed that I got an email and not a phone call, okay, and that felt like a punch in the stomach in the best possible way, and I said you know what? You are right, I am sorry, yeah, and I learned from it and that will never happen again, and it usually doesn't happen, like, that's not my practice. Yeah, and so the fact that I was getting called out for something that I typically don't do. But did.
Speaker 3Right, right. Yeah, I think will make me a stronger leader in the future and I was so appreciative that the person told me that, because they could have easily just swallowed it and just said you know, forget it, I'm not going to worry about it. But I actually felt better, greg, apologizing.
Speaker 2I can see that. Yeah, it makes me think back to, honestly, one of our first episodes from first season. Go ahead, what is it Seems like eons ago. It was when I talked about a great mentor of mine, hal, and how he said we are in the relationship business.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2And there's a personal side to this, there's a human side to this that is lost in an email, mark. Yeah, and so it's a great example.
Speaker 3Yeah, it's a great example yeah, and that will never happen. Well, listen, I can't say that. I've also learned to say that something will never happen again. The chances of that happening again are severely or significantly rather decreased. They are, you know. So, nine times out of 10, I get that Right. I think that's a strength of mine. I think I have a lot of weaknesses, but that's a strength and I screwed it up anyway.
Speaker 1Yeah, so that gives you, I think what else am I screwing up?
Speaker 3People aren't telling me Exactly. People tell me that's how we get better. Right, that is how we get better. You and I are good at that. We give each other really good critical feedback, I think.
Speaker 2Oh, it really is. You've saved me in many cases.
Speaker 3I feel the same way and I feel like we have the safety in our relationship, where we're like dude. Yeah, what are you thinking? What are you doing? Why I appreciate our religion? We have very similar jobs. These are lonely jobs, all jobs where the only one is a lonely job. It's true, and it's nice to have you give me feedback and I also feel good giving you feedback. I've never felt inhibited in what I've shared with you yeah, thank you, and you complete me.
Speaker 2What is that, jerry?
Speaker 3mcguire, show me the money, greg um so we're gonna get back to this article mr we had a
Speaker 2moment. There we had a moment we're staring at each other he likes.
Speaker 3I think mark likes, when he glasses I just want to point out that your glasses look a lot like somebody else's glasses at this table?
Speaker 2oh yeah, they do look like yours I'm. I guess I'm trying to be like you.
Speaker 3Listen when you grow up listen, uh gaio says there are four things. Yes, yes.
Speaker 2So there are four things, and these are. I think this is very, it's very simple here, but I think these are things you can carry with you.
Speaker 3Actually, Gaio is attributing these things to someone with the last name. Bet this.
Speaker 2Yes, yep. So what's number one? So the first one is failure can bring you closer to your team. Sure, sure, and we just talked about that yeah, I feel much closer.
Speaker 3I feel close to you because we talk about our failures, yes, and I feel closer to this person and have more respect with this person, because they told me the truth, right, exactly exactly right, like anybody can tell you a lie yeah, that's your example was perfect because it did.
Speaker 2It brought you guys a little bit closer that was yesterday, dude.
Speaker 3Yeah, how about that it was?
Speaker 2yesterday. How about that? Yeah, very timely. So the second one is failure can help you build trust, and I've been talking to my team a lot about that and how you know the foundation of trust. I mean there are millions of books written about trust, but it's one of those qualities that you know everything. It's a foundational quality, right.
Speaker 3Well, I think you're also. And to the author's point here, moving forward starts with taking responsibility for errors rather than passing the buck. I think people want colleagues and they want a service agency and they want a teacher and they want who tell them the truth.
Speaker 2Sure.
Speaker 3Sure, and I think people are afraid that they'll lose business or lose a relationship if they tell them that they did something wrong or something went sideways. I think the opposite is true. I think people are more likely inclined to stay with someone who is willing to admit a mistake, because everybody knows, of course, in their hearts that everybody makes mistakes. So think of the courage and the respect the person has, the respect they have for you by telling you the truth. Three was failure is a learning opportunity. It's about exploring what happened instead of identifying who is to blame. I told a story recently or on a previous podcast I won't repeat the whole thing, but remember it was about Ross Perot.
Speaker 1He had a guy that lost like $100,000 or something, and he thought he was getting fired.
Speaker 3And he said you're not getting fired you just made $100,000. I just made $100,000 investment in you.
Speaker 2Wow.
Speaker 3The idea there. He won't do it again. That's right or the. Let me rephrase that the chances of him doing it again are severely or significantly decreased, as opposed to firing him and then a new person coming in and doing the same thing again. Sure.
Speaker 2Sure, what's the fourth one? He would take another hit and I something. Just quickly on that one. The learning opportunity we always talk about, you know, doing an autopsy of what happened.
Speaker 3Yeah, postmortem, a hot wash, whatever you call it.
Speaker 2Yeah, postmortem, a hot wash, whatever you call it. Yeah, you go back through when you say okay, this is what happened, here's the process, here's where it went wrong, all right, so, and then the fourth and final is failure supports a culture of innovation. Yeah, now that's interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 3Yeah, I make mistakes every day. If I didn't, the author says I wouldn't be evolving. I like that. That evolution in the professional sense. Growth maybe a better word in the professional sense comes from identifying the things that we've done incorrectly.
Speaker 2Right, right, and we've talked about the visual of. You know you look at a leadership journey from point A to point B and you know everybody would think it's a straight line, but when you look at it it's like a squiggly line, maybe lots of lows and highs, but that's a leadership journey and going from point A to point B to success.
Speaker 3So it's not about avoiding the mistakes, but rather taking ownership and accountability and having the respect for the person who's impacted by the mistake to tell them, and building that trust and that culture of honesty. This is really about honesty, don't you think?
Speaker 2It's a lot about honesty. It's about those human qualities.
Speaker 3But isn't there something dishonest in not acknowledging a mistake? Yes, isn't there something dishonest about not acknowledging a mistake?
Speaker 2Yes, Something I just thought about have you ever put out ground rules before a meeting? Yes, I'm just thinking people need. It sounds very weird to say, but people need to know that they have permission to do that sometimes there is something about saying them and reading them before the meeting starts.
Speaker 3That level sets everybody yes, however, the norms can be whatever permission.
Speaker 2I don't know if that's the right word for that, but it's's kind of yeah, well, there's permission.
Speaker 3You're creating a box to, in a good way, to provide expectations for behavior. Yeah, the irony would be, of course, you know a toxic environment where you have those norms and someone says something within the confines of the norms and then they're punished for it. Oh right, because there's no way to destroy trust faster than to do it that way, right, Exactly exactly. And that's being contradictory.
Speaker 2Yeah, there's a good summary, well so there's a good summary.
Speaker 3Yeah, go ahead, wrap it up, buddy.
Speaker 2So it says in this article. It says at the end having an overarching vision of success can help leaders and managers apply the lessons they learn from their missteps, steps to stay on course and grow professionally and personally. Acknowledging and learning from wrong turns helps leaders make their teams and businesses stronger. Failing to take advantage of the opportunities, mistakes present may be the biggest leadership mistake of all. Yeah, there you go. Well, said yeah. I think that's a great summary for the end.
Speaker 3Well listen. So what have we learned? We've learned that you got to make mistakes, and we've learned that if you're driving with great coons on the road, you better use that turn signal, use that blinker. It's funny, I call it a turn signal. Use a blinker. Yeah, it's a Neepa thing. Northeastern.
Speaker 2PA Yep the blinker. We have better pizza, old Forge. You order it by a tray.
Speaker 3Yeah, it's the best. So you've never taken me there, just for the record.
Speaker 2All right, we'll work that in.
Speaker 3Should I take you to get some Bucks County pizza today?
Speaker 2Maybe we were talking about pizza earlier, New York pizza. So yeah, oh, you were talking with Ann about pizza.
Speaker 3Yeah, with your. Yeah, all right, listen, why don't we?
Speaker 2wrap this brother All right. Well, listeners, we appreciate all the support. We are proud to be in our fourth season here. Season number four, season four. In the meantime, let's make it a great day and innovate the U? S a Peace and love.
Speaker 3Peace, and love, thank you.
