Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
We invite you to join us as we talk about the world of leadership during times of complexity.
Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
S4:E4: Rocking the Beat of Leadership: How Music Shapes Our Journey to Success
Have you ever found yourself signaling a turn in life, only to realize you’re orchestrating a symphony of leadership and creativity? That's exactly where our latest episode takes you, through the winding roads of Bucks County and straight into the heart of what connects music to the essence of guiding others. Mark's punk band past bubbles to the surface as we jam on the parallels between hitting the stage and rallying a team—each an art form demanding finesse, improvisation, and a deep understanding of your audience, whether they're headbanging fans or your go-getters at the office.
We riff on the importance of practice, harmony in teamwork, and the innovative spirit that keeps the performance alive, encouraging each of you to embrace your role in the grand composition that is life. So plug in, get ready to rock, and let's Lead On with Greg and Mark.
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You're listening to Lead On with Greg and Mark, brought to you by the Pennsylvania Association of Intermediate Units. Join us this season as we engage in conversations on leading on through times of complexity. Now for your hosts, Greg and Mark.
Speaker 2:Welcome back, yo yo. Welcome back there, hasselhoff. What's going on? Oh man, I'm doing great Back here in Bucks County. How could it be better?
Speaker 3:The last time you were here and we recorded you insulted my county folk, oh listen.
Speaker 2:You got to hear, when I was pulling out of town, what happened. You ready for this?
Speaker 3:Let me guess it involves a quote blinker, blinker. It does involve a blinker.
Speaker 2:Can we please call it a turn signal? Okay, so the gentleman in front of me failed to turn on his left turn signal, his left blinker, his left turn.
Speaker 3:I'm just trying to confuse you. Go ahead. And proceeds to get T-boned as they went through the light.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you what happened within two minutes. I was just going right up this way and then right over and it happened. I just couldn't get over it and I'm like were you still in bucks county I said I wish mark was here to see this.
Speaker 3:A horrible accident but listen, they were okay for our listeners.
Speaker 2:They were fine and I made sure they were okay, but listen did you lecture him on the use of his turn? Signal. Next time, remember to use a turn signal so you weren't actually involved.
Speaker 3:You were a witness to this accident. I was a witness Excellent. So I want to. I want to talk to you about driving actually, because you and I, we just went out and got a cheesesteak and took about 30 minutes. What was that Right? I mean like, how long does it take to make a cheesesteak? I?
Speaker 2:mean, I mean it's.
Speaker 3:If you know your steak shop and the lunch rush is coming, you should probably have it prepped. Yeah, prep it. We're coming back to the IU. I'm a passenger in your car.
Speaker 2:Yep, so far your driving had been fine, and it's a V6 engine your driving had been fine.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you parallel parked. It was first try. It was a thing of beauty, wasn't it? You did a nice job. I didn first try. It was a thing of beauty, wasn't it? You did a nice job. I didn't mention it because I didn't want to inflate your ego, but I noticed it right, and we're going to turn left, but there's no turning lane and there's no turning arrow, so it's a yield on left. Yep, yep. So I'm like okay, you put your turn signal on, you're over to the left, you're following all traffic rules, procedures and norms and a car is coming towards us.
Speaker 2:Slowly Debatable.
Speaker 3:Rather than wait and yield. You did the NEPA slide the Northeast Pennsylvania slide you just cut right in front of that car.
Speaker 2:Not to be confused with the electric slide you were trying to get T-boned.
Speaker 3:You did it with your turn signal on, so you were signaling that you wanted to get hit.
Speaker 2:My turn signal no. My turn signal was like I'm coming. That's what that means. You were signaling that you wanted to get hit. My turn signal no.
Speaker 3:My turn signal was like I'm coming. That's what that means. You were like out of my way and of course you know we were turning left. I was in your passenger seat, so I was completely exposed. Yeah, I held on for dear life.
Speaker 2:Listen, you have good health insurance and life insurance. Rather Exactly, I mean, lisa will be fine.
Speaker 3:So you may have used your turn signal, but that does not excuse an illegal left turn. Oh, I'll tell you I love it.
Speaker 2:When did you become the traffic police? I mean, I'll tell you.
Speaker 3:I only paid attention to your driving because of how critical you were of other Bucks County people.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Bucks County. Blinker's optional. Blinker's optional.
Speaker 3:So today.
Speaker 2:I'm glad to be back in beautiful Bucks County and talking about one of my favorite favorite topics today with Dr Mark Hoffman, which is music, and we're going to talk a little bit about the connection between music and leadership, which I think is very interesting. So first of all, Mark, talk to our listeners about your experience with music, with actually playing music.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, interesting question. I did the whole band in school thing right, starting in fourth grade. I think is when we could pick an instrument Right All the way through high school. But in ninth grade my parents were kind enough to indulge my interest in punk rock music and they got me a bass, like a four-string electric bass guitar and an amp, and I was hooked. It didn't deter me from staying in the band at school, but I was in a punk band, hardcore band, all through high school and into college.
Speaker 3:I've listened to them. They're awesome. Oh, I appreciate that. Thanks Good energy, and so music. I mean, this was way before streaming and all that stuff. You know we're old at this point and so we were.
Speaker 3:We put out tapes, love, cds cassettes yeah, like we, we printed stickers and t-shirt. We had a merch booth love the merch that lisa might have worked at, you know when we were so, um, did you ever have your hair dyed? Yeah, but nothing crazy, right. I was definitely like a suburban punk rocker kind of kid. I definitely had like five, six earrings, okay, like piercings and stuff. Yeah, I didn't have like face piercings, but my ears were.
Speaker 2:I had three, four in each ear. Whatever it was, you didn't do. One of those were the big circles in your ears no gauges, gauges.
Speaker 3:No because that never appealed to me, like plenty of my friends hadn't have gauges. Because once you stretch, your earlobes, it's not coming back right exactly um, I was worried for a second.
Speaker 3:So that was my scene, right, like I should say that was our scene, because lisa too. But um, like, those are my people and I'm completely at home at a punk rock show, right, I mean, I just sort of pretend to be like a boringly dressed adult on the outside now. But anyway, the reason I guess you're asking me is like the connections, like music has been a huge part of my life, and then there isn't really ever a time in my house and I know it's the same for you where music's not playing Right Exactly, and so you know and it's been fun the last year, so I've been teaching my daughter how to play the bass, and so it's rekindled, even my love for the bass, because when my kids were born, you get busy and so sometimes your hobbies and passions take a backseat to raising your kids as they should.
Speaker 3:Right, like that's a good thing? I think yeah, and now that my kids are older, I've rediscovered my love of the bass.
Speaker 2:It's a good thing. It's a it's good and we're going to talk about that in today's episode. Uh, working through on how you know all the things that it takes with music, you know what music, where you know as far as practicing with it, as far as keeping up with it, um, I could tell you from being the band manager of the procedural safeguards got out to the procedural safeguards so we have a great uh piu band named the procedural safeguards, and mark is our bass player, and uh it's.
Speaker 3:It's a thing of beauty, we're having a good time and you know, like to your point, I think one of the things that we're going to talk about is that music brings people together, not only people that like an artist and you go to their concerts or you see someone wearing a t-shirt or you know that someone listens, like, like. Think of the bond that people have over sharing a love of a performer or of a band or of a song right like think of, like the taylor swift craze, right.
Speaker 3:All of those people have a bond or a connection over their love of one singer, right, exactly, but it's not just her right. The grateful dead, the rolling stones, the beatles, any punk band, any, um, any, any band with a following. There's like a like, a like, a brotherhood, ahood, a sisterhood, a fraternity, if you will, of the fans and do you find yourself a lot.
Speaker 2:You'll hear a new band. You'll say, boy, that this band must have influenced them. Oh, a hundred percent, I love. I love that Music evolves over time.
Speaker 3:It's like a bad habit for me actually, right? Exactly, exactly that's the beauty of spotify, right, because it's all at your fingertips it's apple music or whatever.
Speaker 2:It gets to know your through ai. It gets to know your you can find anything.
Speaker 3:Do you remember spending 20 bucks on a cd and?
Speaker 2:if it was a terrible cd you were just like for one song, yeah, or if you thought it was terrible.
Speaker 3:You're like I. Just 20 bucks was a lot of money in the 90s.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, I know remember you go to the wall or whatever. Yeah, I'll put it out there. Chris Isaac Wicked Game, one of my all-time favorite songs, but I don't think I liked any other songs on there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you had to buy the whole album. You probably paid like $16.99 for that album, I think it was. Imagine that you don't even pay that for a month Bad investment Of a streaming service.
Speaker 2:So I found this article, mark, and it's called how Music Makes Better Leaders. It's by Curtis Dean, all right. So, curtis Dean, he wrote a nice article here and it starts off saying let's consider how music can promote a challenging task. Playing an instrument involves your complete attention, even when you have plenty of practice. Playing the piano, for example, requires you to get so many aspects involved and emotional, all right. Um, and it goes on, says our response to a good album can be so profound that we are linked to it forever. Hearing the songs will carry you back to a point in time connecting you to an individual. I love this part, yeah songs, because I think you know, yeah, yeah, like, for example, my father.
Speaker 2:We lost my father, it goes back, it goes back years yeah and I hear certain songs that he used to play on eight track. Yeah and uh, it just takes me right back statler brothers, things like that, and anytime I hear a song, it's it's it's my dad you think you're done?
Speaker 3:I think it's like smells too, or tastes. Yes like a certain smell, like oh, that smells like yeah, this memory. Or oh god, this taste just. It brings me back to like, yeah, this memory. Or yeah, oh god, this taste, just it brings me back to. It triggers that little channel in your brain, exactly, exactly so.
Speaker 3:You know, we, we did these like photo collages when my grandparents passed away and we put you know songs and then we had pictures going over them and you know, you export them as movies for the longest time and to some degree to this day, even 20 years later. Those songs that I loved so much to put on the soundtrack with those photo shows, I can't even listen to Because it just reminds me of the photo slideshow and then of my grandparents. It was tough at the time, of course, but I've moved on past that. But the song still has an emotional connection to their passing because I associate that song now with their funerals. Oh my, gosh.
Speaker 2:Well, there's one that I associate with my parents. This is us, by Mark Knopfler and Emmylou Harris. Sure, it's unbelievable hearing that I see, as, as I listen to it, I'm seeing pictures and I'm, I'm, I'm reliving memories, and you're able to listen to it all the way through. Uh, yeah, oh, I'll always I'm able to get through it. It's emotional, though it's an emotional experience, right isn't that interesting.
Speaker 3:I think that's what they're getting out here yeah, yeah, but he's talking to hear about how music makes you a better leader, and I think he's talking about it from the perspective of a performer. But I sort of like the direction we're going as a consumer too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, I think it could be both. So you're not a musician if you're a listener right now, not a musician, but you enjoy music. There is an element there with listening to music that contributes to your leadership.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, you know you rolled up in here today with your rolling speaker and I mean it changed the vibe immediately. When you're walking through an office building playing music, people come out of their office, they dance and even if they're not willing to dance or comfortable dancing, they come out to see what the commotion is. That's it. Do you do that regularly at your office, or is that just sort of a treat here?
Speaker 2:because don't work here, kind of thing. So uh, some of the holidays, I was obviously, you saw, I was dressed as an elf at one time and I went around and our board president was was santa and we went around through all the staff offices and everything and playing Christmas music Next week or whenever is convenient.
Speaker 3:I challenge you to do what you did here at work.
Speaker 2:Okay, see what the reaction is. I accept your challenge. All right, very good, all right.
Speaker 3:All right. So what is this guy's name? Again, his name is Curtis Curtis. He's got what Five things here.
Speaker 2:He's Music helps make you a better leader. So five highlights, here we go. Number one it teaches discipline, so it talks about practice here. So practice Without practice, you'll find it incredibly challenging to learn an instrument. One of the earliest things you experience as you practice an instrument is discipline.
Speaker 3:If you want to get better, yes. So if you're committed to getting better, you've got to practice. Yes, you know, that's the one, and I think it's the same as sports. I think, when we go through these five things, any passion that you have, yes, sports um, music arts.
Speaker 3:There's a fallacy we talked about fallacies that people are just born, naturally gifted in. Some other people like that, of course, for the vast majority of people who are practitioners of any of those things they've practiced, and what you're watching on stage or what you see in a gallery or what you see on a field, as the final performance didn't happen by accident those guys on stage, those gals on stage, those people playing in the field, those people who have made millions creating art, the abilities, the abilities they practiced.
Speaker 3:This takes me back to Allen Iverson Practice. We talking about practice. Yes, I'm supposed to be the franchise player and we ain't here talking about practice Practice. You don't know what I'm talking about, do you? I don't? The most famous speech in Philadelphia sports history, allen Iverson, superstar right yeah For the Philadelphia 76ers, one of the greatest basketball players of all time right he did a press conference.
Speaker 3:He was in a weird mood and he hadn't showed up to practice or he wasn't putting his heart in at practice, and the reporters, instead of asking him about the games and all these things, were asking him about practice and he lost his mind. But he didn't freak out. He said it almost just like I did, nonchalant yeah, almost saying like I'm the franchise player and you're asking me questions at this press conference. Yeah, about practice. He's like how am I supposed to make my teammates better by practice? Right, I think this author's article is making the point that practice does matter.
Speaker 3:Maybe yes, oh most definitely, alan didn't see it. I'm going to send you that clip on YouTube. Okay, yeah, I've got to watch that and the people have remixed it into songs Because he says it so poetically, yes, and almost like he's singing it, like he's rapping. It's fantastic, all right number two.
Speaker 2:So number two is innovative problem solving. So one of the critical skills that leaders must have is finding innovative solutions to a problem. So when they are confronted with difficulties, being innovative and creative might be the solution.
Speaker 3:Yeah, same thing with sports, same thing with any hobby, right, the more you work together, the more you work at a skill, the more you put yourself out there on a field, on a stage, the more problems you're going to encounter.
Speaker 3:Learning more tricks, learning more rules, yeah, but I think that the more things you try that are new, the more likely it is that you're going to confront problems. Yes, the person who's trying new things and practicing new things and embracing new things is going to run into more problems in Roblox than the person who just sits and does nothing Right, and so therefore, that person will have more experience solving problems. There you go. So the person who puts themselves out there and tries in theory should be a better problem solver because they have more practice.
Speaker 2:Back to alan right, exactly the counter alan. Three full circle there. Uh, so three is be expansively mindful. So skilled leaders react to conversations, listen to them and participate love that yeah, that's great.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think if you're going to be in a band, you got to listen to your other bandmates. If, if you're in an orchestra, there you go, and your part says that you're supposed to be quiet and the violins are allowed to be loud, then you better be mindful of the fact that you're playing a role. Right, actually, that's one of the things that I wrote down as you asked me to think about, like connections to music lead guitar player. I'm not the drummer, I'm not the singer, I'm the bass player. The bass player plays a role in a band. Sure, it's important, no bass player, no band. But the bass player is not the lead guitar player well, something I picked up on.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry to interrupt, but something I picked up on is that you always line yourself up next to the drummer, always. So talk to the listeners. What's that all about?
Speaker 3:drummers and bass players are brothers and sisters. Right, we are locked in as the rhythm section. You can throw keys in there too. Right, a keyboard player could sort of be in the rhythm section or could be a lead. But if you have a keyboard player, I also think of the keys as like an honorary member of the rhythm section.
Speaker 3:But nonetheless, drummers and bass players have to be locked in because we're holding down the beat. That's right, and we decide if we're going too fast, too slow. We can look at each other. If the drummer's not going fast enough, the bass player starts to move a little fast. You make eye contact. If the bass player's not on the right beat, the drummer looks over and those two have to be locked in. It's the battery. It's like the pitcher and the catcher Right, and everything have to be locked in. It's the battery. It's like the pitcher and the catcher right, and everything else is the icing on the cake. You don't have a good drummer people notice you don't have a good bass player. People notice you have an average guitar player.
Speaker 3:It's okay, because they're driving the but people can tolerate that, but people will not tolerate a bad drummer. People will not tolerate a bass player and the beautiful part about it is if they're doing a good job, you probably don't even notice. Your attention is on the other people in the band that have a little bit more of the fun stuff. The lead guitar the singing.
Speaker 3:They're like the face of the band, sometimes If the drummer and the bass player are locked in, then the spotlight can be on the guitars and the singer. Yes. So that's why we're always we lock together and the amp is literally right next to the monitors or right next to the drummer, because he's got to hear what the bass is doing and the bass has got to hear that kick and that snare and this contributes so nicely to leadership, because if you look at what the bass player and the drummer are doing, they're setting the foundation for that band, just like your team yeah.
Speaker 2:You have different team members who are going to help set the foundation for you, and you don't always need to be in the spotlight.
Speaker 3:I don't want to be in the spotlight. I want to be that steady rhythm in the background that allows others. And when we're going too fast, I'll slow us down. When we're not going fast enough, I'll pick it up.
Speaker 2:I noticed that with the tempo when we're at during practices. Something else I wanted to point out. So a shout out to Aunt Mimi, Mimi Bayshore.
Speaker 3:We love Aunt Mimi.
Speaker 2:Who hosted us my favorite aunt you always say who hosted us at her local church for band practices, Something she told me about I didn't even realize. They were cleaning up after and there were wood chips from Demetrius from our drummer. He hits the drums that hard, he hits them that hard, that there were wood chips from Demetrius from our drummer. He hits the drums that hard, he hits them that hard, that there were wood chips after each practice. He's such a great drummer, oh yeah. Yeah he is awesome.
Speaker 3:Matt on keys. Brandon on guitar. Yeah, John.
Speaker 2:John Gordon on guitar Bob on vocals.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a great band, great band manager.
Speaker 2:You brought us all together, number five. All right Number five. Number four no, no, no, no. Number four Helps to improve well-being, so music is always a good idea. I would agree with that. Listening to music and singing can have an optimistic effect on the body, both mentally and physically, whether it's through getting involved with the choir, having a mini concert in the shower or jamming along in the car, like yours truly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I think this goes back to what we talked about before about mental wellness and the connections emotionally that we have with music.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, and you know, it's funny too, like a good DJ, that people say, oh, what are they doing? They're pushing play on the song. I don't think so. A DJ reads the room and plays a song that matches the vibe, and a DJ changes the vibe in the room by incrementally playing songs that change the tenor Right, like a wedding DJ. All right, we want people dancing. We can't just go back and forth hard, we have to do transitional songs.
Speaker 2:Right, that's right.
Speaker 3:We have to read the room and go okay, this isn't working. Let's try Motown Right, all right, motown's not working. Let's try the 90s. 90s not working, let's go funk, that's it.
Speaker 2:It's a skill, it's a skill, it's a skill set.
Speaker 3:And then you got to know what to play, right. Like you know, I'm sure, the DJs and I know this, and you know this they get tired of playing the same songs over and over again, but they're the songs that people want to hear, and so you got to put your pride aside and which I think is another tenant to leadership as well. Yeah, I think that's a great point.
Speaker 2:It's not about you when you're the.
Speaker 3:DJ or you're the band. It's not about you, it's about the audience.
Speaker 2:Right, and when you're working, when you're in a leadership role, it's not about you. It's about the organization or the business or the school, whatever it might be.
Speaker 3:You're a DJ. You might have heard Don't Stop Believin', but they want you to play it, so you got to play it for the 4 million and first time. Yeah, that's, that's it. Yeah, they don't. They don't want to hear the deep cut or the deep track from the album that no one's ever heard. No, even though it might be the best song on the album. Right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Save that for your car. Number five All right, number five. So this is our last one here of the five building self-confidence. Try to imagine having a leader who lacks confidence in themselves. They'll find it hard to make things move, empower their team or even have a clear objective. So how can music fit into this? Well, whether it's completing your first song or getting your first music lessons in front of your family and friends, confidence is essential to success.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know. Back to your question about being in a band yes, starting um. Obviously you know concerts and things in school, though I wasn't nervous about that. The first time I probably ever felt nerves was 16 in a punk band, in a three-piece punk band. Yes, playing in front of your friends at a skate park right, like you're up there and it's you, you're essentially up there naked. If you will, will, right.
Speaker 3:Like it's three guys, their instruments. You barely know what you're doing. Your friends are there, older kids are there, that are way. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, it's yeah. So I know that being in a band, you're vulnerable. You're putting yourself out there, yes and um. I know that those experiences helped me with confidence in, as a teacher, getting up in front of others and it's helped me in this career with a lot of public speaking. I don't find it weird to get up and talk because I'm used to all the way from elementary school performing in front of others and then from high school really performing in front of others where there's not like 40, 50 people on the stage with you.
Speaker 2:That translates beautifully from your experience with music to standing up and public speaking.
Speaker 3:Sure, and you're also putting stuff out there experience with music to standing up and public speaking, sure, and you're also putting stuff out there. We were recruiting music when we were 16, 17, putting out tapes and giving to our friends. Yeah, like, imagine like you're like putting your heart out there and you're saying here, listen to this, and then people are going to say that song is terrible.
Speaker 2:People critique it and, of course, yeah, right.
Speaker 3:So anyway that I feel like I have a lot more. I'm not going to call it confidence, but comfortability with being vulnerable or getting up and speaking, because it's been a normal part of my life since I was a kid and in particular, since I was a teenager.
Speaker 2:Well, you also have a stage presence, Mark, if you don't mind me mentioning that. Like you, just I've seen you in meetings and and like with our leadership groups and you do you, when you stand up, you have a presence about you, but there's a confidence. Oh well, I appreciate that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you and you're the same way actually you have. You are one of the most not to make this about us complimenting each other, but you deserve a compliment in that. Yeah, oh, please, please stop, please stop, as he's waving his hand. You model for others vulnerability. You are not afraid to put yourself out there and others might, might say, oh, I would never do that. Like, for example, walk around with a karaoke machine, get up in front of others and tell a joke. You are not afraid to put yourself out there and you model for others that it is safe, acceptable, endearing and leaderly. That's a word To be first. You are word to be first. You are never afraid to be first.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I appreciate that, and you're not afraid to fail either. That means a lot, no, and I don't think you fail.
Speaker 3:I mean, like the things that you're doing you could potentially fail at. I haven't seen you do that, but if you were afraid to fail then you wouldn't be doing those things. Yeah to fail, then you wouldn't be doing those things, yeah, you would just be sitting and watching somebody else try it. Agreed, agreed. So I've learned a lot from you, so I appreciate the compliment I want to return it, but.
Speaker 2:I mean it as well. I truly appreciate that, Mark. So what we're going to do right now is just going to wrap up some of the things we talked about. Yeah, you want to restate them so yes, so we're talking about how music can help boost your confidence, your discipline, how you see life, and also improving your leadership. So we talked about a little bit of all of that. If I can go back through the five just quickly, yeah, the first one teaches discipline.
Speaker 2:Innovative problem solving was two. Three be expansively mindful. Four is help to improve well-being, and then the fifth and final one was building self-confidence. So I I did learn a lot from this, and it really makes sense. I think that we both love music so much.
Speaker 3:Yeah, as performers and as collaborators and as consumers.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:All of it, huge part of my life.
Speaker 2:All of it, so we're going to wrap this up, listeners. Again, thank you for your support. We we have been hearing a lot of feedback and we do encourage you to to share this podcast lead on with greg and mark with all of your friends on, and you can access it on any social media platform, as they know, because they're listening, because you're listening all right great, always. Good to see you, brother all right, let's make it a great day and let's innovate the USA. All right, have a great day. Have a great day.
