Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
We invite you to join us as we talk about the world of leadership during times of complexity.
Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
S4:E6 Big Mike's Guiding Principles for Success
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You've asked for it; we've delivered. Join us and a very special guest requested by our loyal listeners: Michael 'Big Mike' Hoffman - Mark's dad. His words of wisdom imparted to Mark over the years - and subsequently referenced on many episodes of the podcast - come to life as he shares experiences from his career in the Department of Defense.
Big Mike shares invaluable wisdom on the fundamental principles of leadership, emphasizing reciprocal relationships, trust, and kindness. He believes that leaders should empower their team members to shine and that great organizations thrive on consistent incremental change rather than striving for unattainable perfection. This discussion highlights the importance of prioritizing relationships over positions as a cornerstone of effective leadership.
All this, while keeping things light and fun. This episode is not just informative, but a delightful blend of wisdom, humor, and heartfelt reflections.
Check out all episodes of Lead On with Greg & Mark on your favorite podcast platform!
Leadership Insights With Michael Hoffman
Speaker 1You're listening to Lead On with Greg and Mark, brought to you by the Pennsylvania Association of Intermediate Units. Join us this season as we engage in conversations on leading on through times of complexity. Now for your hosts, Greg and Mark.
Speaker 2Hello Gregory, hi there Mark.
Speaker 1Greg, I think it's been a while since we've had a guest. I was thinking back, I think it was. I think we'd go like Coy Bowles.
Speaker 2And he was a rock star.
Speaker 1And he was, yeah, he was a rock star. And so how fitting. He was literally a rock star.
Speaker 2We have a guest, and this is not just any guest, by the way.
Speaker 1This is a guest we've been talking about. I have been so excited for this. We have Mr Michael Hoffman, big Mike, here with us today. It is a pleasure to have you here. Really, I was thinking about this, since we had this planned. Mark reached out to me the other day and said had this planned? You know, mark reached out to me the other day and said I got my dad to come. He's going to be here, so so we are thrilled to have you.
Speaker 1We quote you all the time I want to let you know, I know you've listened to a couple episodes, but we, we love, we love your quotes. So, uh, all right. So let's just, let's just start off and just, can you just tell us a little bit about your background? Okay?
Speaker 3sure I can. I can tell you. I graduated from Clarion State College, which is now Clarion University. I was a political science major, which qualified me to do absolutely nothing except go to graduate school. I took a federal service entrance examination back then. I got called by the Defense Logistics Agency it's a primary level field activity in Philadelphia Defense Industrial Supply Center and I started working there probably a month after I graduated from college. I started out as a procurement agent in their training program and I kind of worked my way up the ladder and became the director of contracting. And also my last couple of years I transferred out into an operational unit where we managed hospital equipment for the brick-and-mortar hospitals and the mash-type units oh, awesome Back then, and that's my background, and you spent some time in Vietnam.
Speaker 3Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I got drafted almost immediately after I graduated from college. I spent about almost two years in the Army. The last year of my Army career, I was stationed in Vietnam. Well, thank you for your service.
Speaker 1You're welcome. So we have. There's a couple quotes that just stick in my mind. So Mark has, you know, he'll say the big Mike-isms.
Speaker 2We call them, we have them.
Speaker 1And we have them here, and the one I love is leadership by walking around, so tell me where you came up with that one. I like that.
Speaker 3I don't know who wrote the book, but there is a consultant. I guess that we used to read a lot about his articles and back then I would think it was management by walking around.
Speaker 1Was it walking or wandering? Yeah, same difference, though.
Speaker 2Well, I management by walking around. Was it walking or wandering? Yeah, Same difference, though. Well.
Speaker 3I used to wander around. I couldn't sit still for more than, like you know, two or three hours.
Speaker 1So I would just get up and go see what was happening in the organization.
Speaker 2Yeah, I love it. What kinds of things would you learn as a manager or as a leader wandering around talking to your people that you otherwise wouldn't know about if you were in your office?
Speaker 3I would say the main thing is how sharp my people were. They were unbelievably smart. Most of them were smarter than I was.
Speaker 1Yes, I was.
Speaker 3I was kind of like a cheerleader and would cheer them on and always was interested in what they were doing, cheer them on and always was interested in what they were doing for not, not just to make them feel better, but I was uh. It was such a diverse organization and such a diverse uh type of a product that we would supply the military services with it. Just it always amazed me how sharp these people were.
Speaker 2And did you find that when this came up in a previous podcast where I referenced this and D, did you find pop? When this came up in a previous podcast where I referenced this, and did you find Pop that when you were out talking to your folks where they worked, rather than expecting them to come into your office, that you'd learn things that people would tell you stuff.
Speaker 1Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm sure it made you a better manager, right? At least that's how I feel implementing that Like if you're out, not only are you a little bit more approachable, but I think people are a little bit more approachable, but I think people a little bit more inclined to tell you things they might not otherwise have been inclined to.
Speaker 3to go to your office to tell you I agree, and you know what I liked about it is you would always find out the human interest side. Yes, other people, as opposed to kind of just like you, know what they actually did when when they came to work I was. I used to write a report to um top guy when I was not the director and I would tell him all the little things that are going on that had nothing to do with the job, just celebrating a major wedding anniversary, their kids are going to college, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1I love it because it's the human side to this and we always talk about that how important that is to get to know your employees and then you can, once you know them and you've established that relationship, you can do so much more and there's trust right you got it yeah.
Speaker 2And then of course there's you know we refer to your rules of business, which I know you attribute to other people. Right, I attribute them to you because as a kid in the car you would impart these things, whether you realized it or not at the time. But then I say to my dad well, you know, I always tell people you know rule one, two, three, four. And he's always quick to say no, I learned that from general so-and-so or colonel so-and-so yeah it's like so.
Speaker 2One of them that always stood out to me was bad news doesn't get better with age. Yeah I know there's so many versions of that, but that's how you always phrased it.
Speaker 3Yeah, and I attribute that to probably the greatest leader I ever had. His name was General Roy Beauchamp. When he was at our agency, he was a brigadier general. For those of you who don't, that's a one-star general. Yes, when he retired he was a three-star general. How about that? He was a vice commander of the Army Materiel Command, second in line as a top logistician and supply officer. He was just a brilliant, brilliant man, and most of the leadership skills I developed were from General Beauchamp.
Speaker 2Yeah, so I mean we use that all the time here, Like bad news doesn't get better with it. It's never a good idea to bury it, right.
Speaker 1Right, you just put it right out there.
Speaker 2Right and then own it right, right, and then, when things go wrong, sometimes I don't know. At least, I found early in my career when I was like starting out as a manager, sometimes when there was bad news, I thought that by sharing it I was somehow taking ownership of it, if you will like. It didn't occur to me until you know a couple of years of being in a management position that it wasn't my job to worry about that. It was my job to report it and to provide solutions and to come up with creativity, creative ways to maybe avoid happening in the past rather than like fearing about getting in trouble. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2Absolutely, I think everybody has to learn that lesson, right yeah?
Speaker 3Yes.
Speaker 1Yeah, and as humans, I think we're somewhat guarded that way. We don't want to put it right out there. Oh my God, I can't share this.
Speaker 2Well, if you don't share it's only going to be worse, because then there's the implication of a cover-up or incompetence or negligence. Right, that's right.
Speaker 3Absolutely.
Speaker 2Yeah, one of the other ones, pop, is always make your boss look good, always.
Speaker 3I mean you always said that boss is right. One of these generals, yeah, yeah, when. I remember one of the times when he got a new commander, he was. He was a marine. The very first time I met him he asked me. He said, mike, do you know what your job is? I said I think I do, but I I know that's not what you want to hear, so tell me what's my job. He said to keep me out of trouble and make me look good so yes, right, exactly, yeah, that's, that's awesome.
Speaker 3Ever since then, he's the guy.
Speaker 1I got it from Something I was really curious about. I've been thinking about you coming for this episode and we're talking about how young people have changed and the world of work. Think about those young adults coming into the world of work. What kind of advice would you have for these young people coming into the work environment?
Speaker 3I'll tell you the truth, it's probably the same advice I would give people that came into my organization. Number one show up for work. That's very, very important. We wouldn't hire you unless we needed you. Number two it has to do with the bad news. It doesn't get better. If you have a problem, tell somebody, ask somebody for help. Don't be afraid to ask somebody for help. You're new to the organization, you're new to the process and this could be a simple fix if you just ask somebody. What should I do? Do you have any recommendations that kind of?
Leadership and Relationship Building Advice
Speaker 1stuff, love it. And again it's what he would have had in the past, and the same thing applies right now. That's fascinating. And then the other piece is how about for managers and leaders? What would your advice be?
Speaker 3Trust your people. Trust your people. Don't try and do it all yourself, because you'll never get it done.
Speaker 2Yeah, you know we're back to the second rule of always make your boss look good. You know I told you that added a corollary to that, which is always make your team look better.
Speaker 2Yes, so you should always make your boss look good, sure, and that's a big markism, but always make your team look better. But I think that ties into what you're saying right Trust your, and then it should be a relationship, or it should be understood. Greg, you got this team. Their job is to make you look good, but, importantly, your job is to make them look good. So I think about it in terms of board meetings or community newsletters, reports. That shouldn't be about the person in charge of the organization. It should be about the people that made all the work happen right.
Speaker 1So it's reciprocal, like reciprocal, so it's both ways. So awesome, awesome.
Speaker 2Yeah, you know the other thing, that my two other rules, Greg, let me let me just get this. Yeah, Two other rules right. The price of perfection is never worth the cost that's a general boat champ. General boat champ Right. So what does that mean to you?
Speaker 3If you wait till it's perfect, it'll never get done yeah.
Speaker 1And how often does that happen?
Speaker 2Never Right, great organizations are built on incremental change. I don't think that they're built on big, tremendous shifts Right, and so at some point you got to get moving. You got to get moving and you can adjust it as you go Right.
Speaker 3That's. That's yes, because you really don't know how it's going to come off until you try it. And then, obviously, you make adjustments as you go yeah.
Speaker 2And then the fourth one Right Is it doesn't cost you anything to be nice to people.
Speaker 3Oh, yes, yes, that's absolutely key Key to success with your people.
Speaker 2Right, you knew everybody's name. You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 3I had an organization at one time and I had over 500 people and I think I knew everybody's name, everybody.
Speaker 1I love that. That's amazing too. All love that. That's amazing too.
Speaker 2All those people, right, and you get to know, and you get to know their names and stuff by wandering around, right?
Speaker 3Absolutely yes, yeah, so speaking of making them look, good, yeah and yes, and making them look good.
Speaker 1So, speaking of wandering out, wandering around and being nice to people, I attended a recent graduation party at the Hoffman household. You did, and I neglected to meet the patriarch of the family who I'm talking to right now, and I felt so bad. But my wife was like okay, we need to get going.
Speaker 1We had to go to a wedding we had to get to a wedding and didn't want to be late for the wedding and that wouldn't be the first time I was late to a wedding, but anyway, I forgot to introduce. That's a whole nother podcast. So I forgot to introduce myself to you at the time and then Mark called me out and actually you called me out through Mark. Mark reached out to me, said my dad is upset.
Speaker 2I said why.
Speaker 1He said you neglected to go and introduce yourself while I was there, but I did. I did want to say first of all publicly apologize, and you have it recorded in case you ever just want to, uh, keep replaying it. So I think what the listeners want to know about a little bit, if you don't mind while we have you here is a little bit about mark. So I had a couple questions. So, first of all, what was mark like as a child?
Speaker 3oh god what I really remember most about him was he was always reading and writing. He would write stories. I said Janice, that's my wife. I said did you help him write this? And she said no, not at all. I said you've got to be kidding me. This is like written on a 6th or 7th grade level, when he was in 3rd grade.
Speaker 1Unbelievable. That's what I remember most about him.
Speaker 2So you've listened to the podcast, right? Yes, what?
Speaker 1do you want to know about Greg? Do you like how he turned that right there?
Speaker 3Now, you know, besides him being a celebrity, oh yes. A few celebrities. I know what do you like most about your job as a director of an IU, that's a good question.
Speaker 1That's a great question the relationships by far. I really value the people before I value the positions, and that's what I do. I really care for our staff and it was really wild coming in. I only knew maybe three people and it's an organization of about 1,000. And it was really great learning all the different people and, when it comes down to it, they are just people. So sometimes I think we make leadership too complicated and when it comes down to it and I know you have practiced this for your lifetime is it's how you treat people. It doesn't cost anything to be nice, right.
Speaker 2Here, pop, here's a question for you. And then, um, just sort of curious, as we were talking about your career, what's, what's something that you're particularly proud of that you accomplished in your role working for the department of defense?
Speaker 3wow, you know. So I never, I never really thought about I guess, when I was inducted into the Hall of Fame, we had a Hall of Fame and I guess you could say I was selected on the first ballot. Oh how about that?
Speaker 1How about that? You had to wait two years.
Speaker 3Well, it was the guy that nominated me, and wrote me up oh isn't that wonderful.
Speaker 1Yeah, I have a deep question for you. Are you ready for this one?
Speaker 3What's your?
Speaker 1favorite movie.
Speaker 3Oh yeah, speaking of movies. I never knew my son was such an aficionado with the movie trivia.
Father-Son Bonding Through Music
Speaker 1Oh, he knows all the movies, he knows all the sitcoms.
Speaker 2I miss Groundhog's Day.
Speaker 1I mean, you did miss Groundhog's.
Speaker 2Day. How could I miss that? Watch the first step, Mark. It's a doozy. I'm so upset about that. By the way, that's great.
Speaker 1I'm so glad that.
Speaker 2I upset you. You were so happy the day that I got that one.
Speaker 1I was so happy because I did not do.
Speaker 2Well, you did just fine, you did fine.
Speaker 3To answer your question was Godfather, part 1 and Part 2.
Speaker 1Okay, Part two Okay, and then part three no, no good.
Speaker 3It was just okay. It was okay.
Speaker 2There's a lot of leadership lessons in the game.
Speaker 1There's a lot.
Speaker 2There are a lot Never go against the family Never, never, yeah Good stuff, wonderful, wonderful. All right. So what do you think? Did you get what you were?
Speaker 1looking for. I did get what I was looking. I think the punk stage. Do you remember the punk stage?
Speaker 3with the plaid monkey when he was a plaid monkey.
Speaker 1Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2So this is a guy that took just a couple of things about my dad Right. My dad took me to buy my first bass guitar at George's Music in Feasterville. Yeah, I think it was General Beauchamp of all people's, his son that sold it to us, wasn't it?
Speaker 1Yes, so my dad.
Speaker 2I wanted to play the bass. I had played music all through elementary school, middle school I was in middle school at the time Took me I still have that bass. I still play that bass. Thousands and thousands of hours of enjoyment. I think I'm a better person because I have that instrument, teaching my daughter now how to play. But I remember going to Feasterville to buy that.
Speaker 3Yeah, I remember that evening when we went and I was addicted to it. I didn't stop playing it right. And I still remember we had this young fella come to the house to give him lessons. Yes, and after maybe three or four months of once a week lessons, he told me. He said I can't teach him anything else, we're done with the lessons. He was that quick of a learner. Yes, yeah. Would, you say it was three, with three or four months.
Speaker 2I'm not sure, but it was quick. Yeah, we had, we had. I just loved it.
Speaker 1You've always been gifted, I mean. But that's that that translates to leadership. When we talked about music, the connection between music and leadership, but you talk about the punk rock phase, my dad also so he he let me.
Speaker 2He purchased my first guitar. Well, my parents purchased my first guitar, but my dad took me and my brother, who's older, got an earring.
Speaker 1My dad lost his mind but you didn't freak out a lot, but you freaked out on that. Coming from your military days, I could see how. I don't know if it was even that.
Speaker 2However, a couple months later, my dad took me to the mall to get myself, to get me an earring.
Speaker 1So my brother doesn't live that down, so that just gives you a sense of my dad's willing to uh, adjust with the times he actually took me to get.
Speaker 2I wound up. I think I had five or six hearings. My dad took me to the chamonix mall to get my first one.
Speaker 1He pivoted pivot he pivoted and he's like all right I'm gonna uh yeah, exactly exactly, yeah, so you like that.
Speaker 2So I do love that. He was he. He helped facilitate my transformation into a punk rocker right that's, that's great. He bought the guitar and the amp and he bought the hearing.
Speaker 1Yeah, parenting, you do have to adapt sometimes, don't you?
Speaker 3How old are your kids, Greg?
Speaker 1So they're 21, 18, and 15.
Speaker 3So they're not kids anymore.
Speaker 1They're not, but they're always asking for money, though, and what's for dinner, and all that kind of stuff. That never goes away, does it?
Speaker 3No. And what's for dinner? And all that kind of stuff that never goes away, does it? No, I have a T-shirt that one of the kids got me. It says Mike or Pop-Up the man, the myth, the ATM. I love it.
Speaker 1I actually used the term Mac machine, the other day, so did I I use it all the time. And then people like Greg they stopped Mac machines like years ago, but that's what we always called it.
Speaker 2I was in Washington.
Speaker 1DC.
Speaker 2I asked for a Mac machine.
Speaker 1This was like 20 years ago I was like oh, I guess it's an ATM, remember we used to say go tap Mac.
Speaker 2Yeah, that was it, yeah.
Speaker 1That was it. I guess it's a Philly and you had a Mac card. We had a Mac card, yeah. Yeah, I said I was so excited to have you on here and for our listeners I'm sure it's a pleasure to hear all the big Mike-isms from the man himself.
Speaker 3Okay.
Speaker 1Yeah, Thanks.
Speaker 3Bob, oh, you're quite welcome. It was a pleasure to meet you, greg.
Speaker 1You as well, officially meet you.
Speaker 3Pleasure to see you, my son.
Workplace Rules and Relationships
Speaker 1Yes, sir, thank you, pop okay well, listeners, we are, uh, we are so thrilled with your support of our podcast. Lead on with greg and mark uh, keep tuning in, keep telling people we got uh. Anything else we want to mention?
Speaker 2all the no, I mean just for the summary, right, the the four rules that we talked about. Yeah, always make your team, always make your boss look good, always make your team look better. Price perfection is never worth the cost doesn't cost you anything to be nice to people and uh, bad news, doesn't get better with age. Get out there, wander around, meet your people, talk to them, be nice to them and develop relationships right yeah, and show up to work and show up to work show it all starts there all right, what do you say?
Speaker 1we wrap this up, yep. And in the meantime, let's make it a great day and let's innovate the USA. All right, goodbye. Thanks Dad, thanks Big Mike.
Speaker 3Who do I see in your finance department?
Speaker 1I'd like my royalties, your royalties. Okay, so your payment will be in the mail. It'll be in the mail you said that cheese steak I bought you. Consider that your advance payment. Yeah, goodbye All thing.
Speaker 2Yeah, you're right, all right, goodbye, all right.
Speaker 3Goodbye.
Speaker 1Greg.
Speaker 3Bye-bye.
