Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
We invite you to join us as we talk about the world of leadership during times of complexity.
Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
S4: E11 What Is Your 'Death Bed' Advice For Managers?
Join us, Greg and Mark, as we talk about the 'death bed' advice we would give to others leaders.
These foundational concepts are based in our own experiences, failures, and successes.
In addition to absorbing these nuggets of knowledge from mentors, they're often things we have come to learn the hard way.
What advice would you give other managers?
What advice do you wish someone had given to you when you took your first management position?
Tune in for actionable insights that promise to elevate your leadership game.
Check out all episodes of Lead On with Greg & Mark on your favorite podcast platform!
You're listening to Lead On with Greg and Mark, brought to you by the Pennsylvania Association of Intermediate Units. Join us this season as we engage in conversations on leading on through times of complexity. Now for your hosts, Greg and Mark.
Speaker 3:Let's go gregory. Dr mara kaufman, you can't help yourself with that theme song. I love it, it's good, it always. I mean, it gets my blood pumping.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a signal, right, it's a signal that we're we got to go to work.
Speaker 3:We got to yeah, we got to get. We got to go to work yeah, and the best kind of work is the work you enjoy.
Speaker 2:That's it Well said times. We actually had him on the the episode this season. My dad, big mike, yes, big mike, big mike's you know rules of business, like those four essential things. He was awesome yeah, it was awesome like and, and those are really well known to long-term listeners here. You know about the price of perfection never being worth the cost. Bad news never getting better with age right doesn't cost you anything to be nice to people, et cetera.
Speaker 3:Yeah, management through walking around.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly so many things. Those are things that I've absorbed and I think they've become sort of my, like my, North Star in a lot of ways. I have my own theories and thoughts right, which is great, by the way, because the fact that they came from your father. Awesome.
Speaker 3:Right Like just you know it's really grounded, you know from years back and years of experience, so it's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I appreciate that and you know, I hear you say similar things about your pop. You know what I mean? Oh, definitely, definitely. Um, I was, uh, I am a big fan of Alison green. She, uh, is a blogger that has, um, a website called ask a manager and people write into her almost like Dear Abby, and a long time ago she put together something in response to another author's challenge where you have to give deathbed advice.
Speaker 3:Yes, so let's assume you can give…. It's almost like the last lecture. Yeah right, kind of like that. I love that idea. What was that? Randy Palsch, randy Palsch, who's from Pitt? Something like that. He was from Pitt, right, that was awesome.
Speaker 2:Sorry that we're butchering his last name, but the context is like what is that thing you want to impart? Yes, right, and so that's the spirit of what she wrote here, but she did it in the context of what is your deathbed message or wish or advice for new managers, or for any manager right. So before we look at what her list was for many, many years ago, what is your list?
Speaker 3:What?
Speaker 2:is that? What is that? One or two things that you want or that you believe a manager needs to hear about management?
Speaker 3:I love that question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go ahead. So thank you for that. Distill it down, brother.
Speaker 3:So I'm thinking back from my last job and what I learned from that and moving into this job and, and it all has to do with culture.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like establishing that culture of belonging, of common purpose. Yeah, student set centered leadership, um all those kinds of things. And, um, what I learned a lot from my leadership career is a lot of times we do what we think is right and then over time you realize that being the more authentic you can be as a leader, the better you are as a leader and the better people receive you, because they don't feel like they're being sold a thing of goods. They feel like you are there authentically to be there and help students.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that comes with vulnerability. I think people appreciate authentic vulnerability. They see that the person who's leading the organization is willing to share things or to confide, or to express doubt or failure, setting the stage for others to to do that. Right Cause, that's a key part of organizational success. Right, acknowledging failures and learning and building from them.
Speaker 3:Right, yes, and I like that you brought up the vulnerability piece, because that is something I'm focusing on this year with our staff, yeah, and where we have a theme beyond all limits and we're talking about I'm talking to everyone about trying something different, getting out of your comfort zone. I've always liked that service plus you know, your job description is the service. What are you doing? What is that plus? What is the plus? What is the plus that you're bringing to the table?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And bringing to the organization, bringing to the business. What is that wow factor?
Speaker 2:Sure, that you're going to bring, yeah.
Speaker 3:And that's something that you know. When I look at advice, it is that, yeah, how are you going to make your mark Mm-hmm, above and beyond your job description? Are you going to do that? So that would be. That goes again with the culture. You know, setting up a culture, that's okay to take risks and make mistakes, those kinds of things. But, yeah, what is that plus?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for me, the, the. There's lots of ways I'd like to answer this question, but something that I believe is like sort of foundational to my success here is not only just share the stage, share the spotlight right, it's like a huge part of my leadership style, I believe, like, at least I would hope it is, I would, I would like it to be that that's how I perceive it and would love it to be perceived. But not only just share the stage, but keep expanding the size of the stage so that more and more people can be, can be with you.
Speaker 3:Do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:It's not about me right, it's about the people that are here and my job is to facilitate them shining.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Right. Allison had five or six things that she wrote down and I thought that her advice was pretty interesting. The first thing she said in her advice her deathbed advice was look for trouble. Literally look for trouble, she says as a leader, now as a manager, assume that things will go wrong and poke around to find out what they might be. You'll uncover problems oftentimes that this way and you'll have an earlier chance to fix them. Always ask questions and don't wait for problems to come to you, but sort of be curious, poke around. This is very similar to big Mike's management by walking around. Yes, it is Right. Yes, it is Right If you're out wandering around, not necessarily stoking the flames, looking for problems, but knowing that by being out there, problems will come to you sooner than if you were in your office and therefore more likely to be solvable.
Speaker 3:What I like, this and what I always talk about, is checking the pulse of your organization, checking the pulse of your business. That's the only way you can find out is being out and about with your people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and in a previous episode episode we talked about the inevitability of conflict.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:So if you're out there, you're going to find out where the conflict is and you can solve it before it becomes toxic. Right, yeah, right.
Speaker 3:And I. What I've found too, is talking to like, let's say, for example, I was talking to supervisors, yeah, and supervisors, and then I bring up whatever that problem, potential problem is to the director. The director didn't even know, of course. Yeah, didn't know the problem existed. Yeah, didn't realize that. Their perspective on it of foreseeing an issue.
Speaker 2:Isn't it interesting that sometimes people are more willing to tell us things than they are to their direct supervisor? A lot of times I was like well, have you told your supervisor this? Well, no, and it's not an indication that they have a bad relationship with their supervisor.
Speaker 3:Sometimes it's the opposite of that. They have such a great relationship.
Speaker 2:They don't want to bring a negative thing to it, but they have your ear.
Speaker 3:I guess, and they know that you're a willing I think that's a compliment to you, though, Mark, because they know that you're willing to listen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I think their supervisors and I appreciate that, thank you. And they think they recognize how busy their supervisor is, or you know, it's just. It's always been interesting. I've learned to say thank you for that. Have you talked to your supervisor? Or you know what? I'll be sure to bring that up with your supervisor, because they're the one that really needs to be involved in fixing that or addressing it.
Speaker 2:I can't really do that yeah she goes on to say do what you say you're going to do by when you say you're going to do it, or update people accordingly. I love that. So she says a subset of this is to be responsive. If people have to follow up with you to get a response, you're not being responsive enough. It only takes 30 seconds to write something as simple as I. Won't have time to look at this until next week. If nothing else, it lets people know where you stand. We're dealing with this with a vendor. Right now, my wife and I are dealing with an appliance that's broken. We had a guy come out to the house. He took a look at it and he said okay, I can fix the start. You tore it apart, and then he comes to the back inside the house and he says uh, actually I don't have everything I need.
Speaker 3:I'll come back next week, right, okay, no big deal, we don't need it in the meantime, see you next week, don't hear from them the following week.
Speaker 2:We let it go. We're patient. So then my wife follows up with them and says hey, what's the story? You come back. Oh sorry, I got carried away. You know, busy time of year, blah, blah, blah. I'll come next week. Still doesn't come the following week. And we're just like you know, every time we follow up with him he's putting the burden on us to chase him. We just want him to either break up with us and say hey, I don't want to fix your appliance right, or I won't be able to get to it until three weeks. Is that okay? As opposed to over-promising and under-delivering, I'd rather under-promise and over-deliver.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Right, and so we're following up with him.
Speaker 3:Customer service You're looking for.
Speaker 2:yeah, show up when you're saying you're going to show up and even if the outcome was the same from the very beginning, that this thing doesn't get solved or fixed for a month, if, Even if the outcome was the same from the very beginning, that this thing doesn't get solved or fixed for a month, If he had told us it's going to take me a month to get around to this, we would be a lot less frustrated and he would not be dealing with text messages from us pestering when are you coming back? Right, right. She goes on to say ask for help when you need it. That's her third piece of advice. If you're overwhelmed, confused, your rope. My dad's bad news doesn't get better with age. And then one of his other pieces of advice, right Like ask for help.
Speaker 3:And I love it and so simple, but people sometimes feel that it's a weakness asking for help.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, so like for listeners it does.
Speaker 3:It depends on the leadership, right? Yeah, so for listeners, you're hearing this and you're saying well, you know, I'm kind of anxious about asking for help because it'll look like I don't know how to do my job. You need to really evaluate what kind of leadership structure is there. Is it a supportive structure, right? Do you have the? Are the resources there to help you out? Because I could see that happening a lot, Mark. Sure, I could see that happen a lot.
Speaker 2:Yep. Be honest with your staff. She says about the hard things. Even if you're uncomfortable addressing shortcomings, tell them where they can improve. Don't value your own comfort as a manager over their ability to grow and improve. I love that. Don't value your own comfort. In other words, don't avoid uncomfortable conversations if it means that your employees won't then grow and improve. If, deep down, you don't believe they can succeed in their current position, talk to them honestly about that too, right?
Speaker 3:So let's talk about the evaluation process a little bit and the dreaded evaluation. You know, and let's think about it. In any typical system you have an annual evaluation. Sometimes you don't even have an evaluation.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's multiple times a year, or sometimes it's multiple situations.
Speaker 3:They're all so different, but with an evaluation, giving honest feedback to that employee, you're doing them such a favor. And then, just if you sacrifice that, just because you want to be more comfortable and don't want to have that conversation, you're doing a disservice to that staff member. That staff member needs to hear that honest feedback.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you need to get comfortable with conflict and it doesn't mean that giving negative. I don't mean conflict like you're going to go to war with the person, but you have to be comfortable being uncomfortable.
Speaker 3:That sounds like a cliche? It is, but it's a good one.
Speaker 2:And if you're not willing to do it, If you're not willing to tell the truth, then that person's going to suffer and you know what else? All the person's colleagues who know that you're their supervisor and you're not directing them or coaching them they're going to have less respect for you as the manager, for not holding that other person accountable for helping them grow, because you're pulling the team down.
Speaker 3:Right, and we always said people are watching. Oh, everybody's watching. And what will happen if you don't address this in an evaluation and you keep avoiding it? It'll get to a point where a work performance issue is going to it's going to either put somebody in danger, services will not be you know services will be depleting. Whatever it might be and it's going to be you're going to have to go right to an improvement plan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or you'll be on the improvement plan because you didn't hold the person accountable and then say well, how long has this been going on for?
Speaker 3:Well, five years, you're kicking a can down the road.
Speaker 2:So you've been this person's supervisor for five years and they've been incompetent for five years or unsuccessful or negligent or needing improvement. And now you need to be on a plan. Yeah, she goes along to say along the way treat people with compassion, even in the hardest moments, like terminating someone. Don't assume anyone is stupid, insubordinate or unmotivated, aggravated. At worst they're miscast, truly believe this meaning they're in the wrong seat right.
Speaker 3:You have the right person in the wrong seat. They're on the wrong bus. It's not the right fit Right.
Speaker 2:It doesn't mean that there's something wrong with them, which is what we talked about in the previous podcast. It's not personal, it's about the issue or the performance, about behavior. It's not the person. Yeah, treat people with compassion. And then, finally, she says you can't give much positive feedback as long as it's sincere.
Speaker 2:We've talked about this, the languages of appreciation, and so, yeah, you can't give too much sincere, positive feedback, but you can give it the wrong way yes if you don't like receiving positive feedback in front of a group and you are constantly getting positive feedback in front of you, you're probably very uncomfortable and and I've seen that I told you, I, you know I I made that mistake in the past we've all made this mistake, because we don't know, and unless you asked your team members how do you like to receive recognition, you won't know that yeah, some people, though the the worst thing would be to be acknowledged in front of their peers a lot like a note, a lot like maybe a tangible.
Speaker 3:Like they said here, handing out it's like handing out chocolate, you know, but that's that's honestly there's. Sometimes, I know your meetings, you always have something for them to snack on, always to eat on. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm a big believer in handwritten notes, though Ironically I default to that I've talked about before because that's what I like. But I know there are plenty of people that I've given handwritten notes, that they read it and they throw it away. Right, they Right, yeah, right. So we all receive feedback differently. Yes, I think the point here is be generous in your feedback. That's positive as long as it's sincere, because insincere, inauthentic feedback, that's positive or negative If it's superficial, it's not going anywhere and people will know that with you as a leader.
Speaker 3:And that goes back to my whole thing about being an authentic leader being authentic in what you do for the right reasons and, in this case, giving them the positive feedback when it's deserved.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Um, I like what the author says here. It says uh, trust me, that email will be read over and over.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that is something that I have done lately and I know you, and that is something that I have done lately and I know you know some people may think differently about writing a positive email, but if I get a compliment about one of our staff from a district, or from you know from someone else.
Speaker 3:I make sure to share that, not only with them, but with whoever their boss is, whoever the director is, Of course. I make sure to do that, Um, and I would hope that they do read it over and over and they know that I'm taking the time to to recognize them for the great work they're doing, Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah and um. That's probably the kind of thing they share with their family over dinner or guess what I got? I got a. I got an attaboy and attagirl.
Speaker 3:Today, at work. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, um, I challenge you listeners to think about, um, what you are not to sound morbid here, but what's your deathbed advice that you're giving to managers? The one thing or the two things, the three things that all managers should know, should practice, should implement in order to be successful, based on your own experiences? So you've heard some of mine, you've heard some of Greg's. Now we've heard Allison Green's. We know what my father's is.
Speaker 2:This might be an interesting exercise for you to journal about right, to sit down and actually articulate it. A lot of us think we know what they are and we think we sort of have this like guttural feeling, this raw, like oh, I know what drives me as a leader, but when push to shove or when push comes to shove, excuse me, maybe it's actually harder to articulate than you thought and maybe it actually is worth the exercise of writing it down. I see that in interviews, a lot too, folks are asked these existential sort of philosophical questions and oftentimes folks with years and years, decades of experience, can't articulate it because they never have, they've never articulated their North Stars, they've never written them down, they just kept doing.
Speaker 3:They just show up to work and they just do it. They never think about it.
Speaker 2:Right and they right, and it doesn't mean that they're about it Right and they're not ineffective by any means. These are very successful people, but no one's ever challenged them to write down what's your philosophy of leadership.
Speaker 3:So and that reflection piece. Sorry to interrupt. That that reflection piece is key. When you write things down in a journal, you know that's a lot.
Speaker 2:Reflect on it. Yeah, and it's there. It's, it's more black and white in front of you and it can be revised. Yes, right, like the first thing that comes out of your mouth isn't usually the most correct or the most complete thought about these really important topics, right, so you might need to write it down, and so that's not actually what I think you know, and then, as you're thinking about, you know, let me go back to that and rephrase it again.
Speaker 2:Well, greg, that is Allison's five or six things. We've talked about ours one or two things. It's something that I think maybe we could look back on and that sounds great. So, listeners, if you have examples of your own existential North star deathbed advice for managers, we'd love for you to share that with us. We'd love to feature it on an upcoming episode in season four, and we like to sort of bake it into all these other things that we've talked about recently, and we encourage you to continue this exciting adventure with us. It's been fun, greg. It has been fun. This has been a small experiment that's turned into.
Speaker 3:Yes, it's morphed its way into.
Speaker 2:When did we start?
Speaker 3:this yes.
Speaker 2:Crazy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is Time flies, my friend, it sure does fly.
Speaker 2:Well, so, as we wrap this up, we're wrapping up not only an episode, but a season.
Speaker 3:We are, we are. So what do you say? So, it's been a pleasure. So, listeners, let's make it a great day and let's what Mark? Innovate the USA. Was I sincere? You were sort of sincere. Was I authentic?
Speaker 2:Yeah, was I vulnerable.
Speaker 1:Somewhat.
Speaker 2:Goodbye, gregory, bye-bye, see you in season four. See you then.
