Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
We invite you to join us as we talk about the world of leadership during times of complexity.
Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
S5:E2 Four Ways To Better Understand Conflict In Your Life
Season 5 continues with a deep dive into a topic that always resonates on LOwGaM: Conflict!
In this episode, we explore the intricacies of team conflict through four unique lenses: relational, task, status, and process.
Tune in for valuable insights on fostering a more cohesive work environment and strengthening relationships though the inventible conflict that awaits us in our work and at home.
Check out all episodes of Lead On with Greg & Mark on your favorite podcast platform!
You're listening to Lead On with Greg and Mark, brought to you by the Pennsylvania Association of Intermediate Units. Join us this season as we engage in conversations on leading on through times of complexity. Now for your hosts, Greg and Mark.
Speaker 2:Let's go. Just achieved a milestone, I sure did you dropped another one off at college. I did. I had one. Finish one uh go to sophomore year. You've got uh two now congrats, right congrats.
Speaker 3:I had two, but remember the first still lives with me.
Speaker 2:He's fonzie, hey dad hey dad, we got anything to eat. Does he have like an applause track, like when he, when he comes into it's like people that clap you know he does then the fonts always have that when he entered the scene, the audience with that in the jukebox.
Speaker 3:He hit his hip against the jukebox, filmed in front of a live studio audience. Arthur fonzarelli, arthur fonzarelli. Henry winkler, yeah, and the best, the best scene was him with the motorcycle, oh my god, jumping, jump it.
Speaker 2:Oh. The water skis, jumping the water, oh that's what it was. It was the water skis that's what it was on water skis jumping over a shark. That's where jump the shark comes from. Yes, it's the best. Oh, it's the best, it's the best so how did I, how did move-in day go? So move-in day, it's all.
Speaker 3:Experience it was a little tricky.
Speaker 2:It was a very emotional time get it all there right, because kids travel with like okay, so apartments where the stuff oh yeah, so yeah, the.
Speaker 3:The dorms these days are just so much more elaborate.
Speaker 2:They're like little condos so that means you got to bring more stuff. Oh, a ton more stuff did you bring like lots of cars, oh caravan one, one car how'd you fit it in pilot.
Speaker 3:Well, it's a little bit like jenga, my friend, and tetris yeah, right, what?
Speaker 2:yeah, okay. So how did you do it and how many people were involved in packing this?
Speaker 3:car. That well, the thing is, we we might have packed a little bit too early. The night before my buddy said we had everything lined up on a on a folding table in the house like it's all together all All summer.
Speaker 2:Tons of stuff. You can visualize it. You can say that's going in the back, that's going in the back seat.
Speaker 3:So we were going through everything. A little snafu that I brought up was that we had furniture that was already assembled like shelving units.
Speaker 3:So we're putting it all together, seb and I, my buddy. He recommended let's do it, get some points with with the wife, you know, and when she comes home it's done, yeah, and they'll be like oh, dad is wonderful, you know, greg did it again. Oh, he did it again. He's awesome, yeah. So what really happened, greg? So what really happened is we got 75 of the stuff in and it was already full and there we are at the tailgate, like leaning on the tailgate, trying.
Speaker 3:I'm not surprised. And and? Did you abandon ship, or did you? We had to regroup both Maria and my daughter Morgan. Yes, maria and my daughter Morgan came out and Morgan was not happy with me. And she said it's her stuff, yeah, and she said she's like I'm just, I don't know where stuff is and everything else. Yeah, I don't know where stuff is and everything else. I said, okay, so Seb had already left, so he didn't know.
Speaker 2:He got out of there. He got out of there. He was like peeled out of the driveway Meanwhile. It was his idea.
Speaker 3:Meanwhile, it was his idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so is he the hero or the?
Speaker 3:villain I don't know, a little bit of each, if he's.
Speaker 2:If you're listening, he's trying to help you. It sounds like he's trying to help me. Yeah, yeah, but some people can't be helped, mark, you know. All right, so you take it all out.
Speaker 3:So we took it all out, actually right back in the house, so it was a whole production. Oh, you didn't leave it on the driveway. And then guess who packed the car?
Speaker 2:Well, was it done successfully? Yes, it was your wife.
Speaker 3:It was Morgan, it was morgan and my only advice was the shelving units. I said take them apart, take, take them apart. So morgan was really crafty with it. She took just certain screws out of it so that it would collapse right and it made all this other room. So morgan successfully packed the car 100 with room.
Speaker 3:The tailgate shut without I mean she's ready for college so that's what maria did she pushed the button on the back tailgate and it goes and closes, and then they were both looking at me, but I was I love that, that she outsmarted you and your in your buddy well, I was. I ended up being the villain and this whole thing. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Speaker 2:My friend, shame on you for trying to pack this car.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I have to say there was a little conflict conflict comes up a lot.
Speaker 2:We've talked about conflict, and that's a healthy conflict, right? Because like it is, it's with a lot. It's met with love, of course, and and and but, but it is a form of conflict of course like and not only conflict between yourself and the car and like the stuff, but just like the idea of how to do it yes um it was a new thing too listeners.
Speaker 2:Uh, they let us know that they liked our um, they always like our conversations about meetings, and they also like our conversations about conflict. So I found it's just so funny, right, like it's generalizable even to packing a car right yes so this is david burkus.
Speaker 2:he's an author, a keynote, um, like a sort of an organizational leadership thought leader kind of guy, and he's got these four, these four concepts of conflict in the workplace or really in life. Yeah, I'm not sure that these are directly attributed to him. I've seen these elsewhere but this is definitely his article and this is definitely his articulation of these four things.
Speaker 3:Well, I like that. It's a. It's four types of team conflict. Yeah Right, so we're not talking one-on-one, we're talking groups of people, right?
Speaker 2:A family unit a team at work, a social group, whatever, Sure.
Speaker 2:So number one, relationship conflict. And this is like differing personalities, like people just don't get along. Surely there's people in your life that rub you the wrong way, right? Surely there are people that you rub the wrong way Myself included, everybody's that way and even people that you gel with Right. It's inevitable that there's going to be a time where you're not actually arguing or having conflict over the content or the substance of the issue, but just rather how you're choosing to approach it with your personality and your style right, I love that you're bringing this up.
Speaker 3:Go ahead, this is something I did with our last team in my previous job. Go ahead. The disc assessment.
Speaker 2:Oh, personality stuff, the personality scale.
Speaker 3:Like a Briggsiggs myers disc. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, because I know we've talked about this in the past, but my business manager was just give me the facts and I'm like how's? How's everything going? Yeah, right, you know she doesn't want to talk to me about how things are going. She wants to tell me we have an issue.
Speaker 2:I want to hear about the packing your car over the weekend right?
Speaker 3:no, just like some of you don't want to talk about the budget, right, right.
Speaker 2:But it's important to know that, and so she has to learn to tolerate. She had to learn to tolerate and put that in quotes your personal interest and you had to learn to tolerate that sometimes you just got to cut to the chase, and so that's how we would interact.
Speaker 3:So if she was approaching me, she would ask me about my family, how things are going. When I went to her, I would get right to the point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm with you on that one. I would feel rude if, on a Monday morning, I went into someone's office and just started talking about work. Yeah, I would feel like me, mark, that that's rude. Yeah, other people are like, well, I'm not here to talk about my private life, I'm here to talk about work. Yes, right, so I like that. All right, task conflict. Oh, anyway, let's go back to relationship.
Speaker 3:Yeah, relationship is a big one.
Speaker 2:So he says, resolving relationship conflict requires empathy and understanding. Private discussions between individuals. I like this too, private discussions.
Speaker 2:I often say I'm never a fan of arguments or conversations with an audience. So if you've got like a cabinet or a team meeting and there's an issue or a conflict between two people that's relational, it's never going to be resolved healthfully or in a positive way. If those sort of one-on-one conversations between Mark and Greg are happening with six other people around the table watching One, it's very awkward for them and two, it's very performative. Rather than getting to the issue, we're worried about saving face. Yeah, because there's an audience. There's an audience. Who's going to win?
Speaker 3:It's an audience who's going to win. It's like an old school gladiator battle. Yes, so I love that. He says private. I totally agree with that, and have you ever been in a meeting where you'd?
Speaker 2:say let's, we just need to have an aside, take it offline parking lot. Let's yep, you two work it out. Come back to the group with a recommendation yep, just head over, just go outside that's something I definitely didn't know early in my career I would let these things drag on or I would engage. Yeah, uh, I you know you know better now with experience. But um, and also, large meetings never a good idea.
Speaker 2:Right, but this isn't about meetings about conflict, but there are people who love conflict, people who hate conflict. There's nothing worse than watching someone who loves conflict engage with someone who avoids conflict. It's usually a bloodbath Right and it's never, ever ever productive audience.
Speaker 3:I agree, I agree, and I actually saw a line in here that I think. I think it's really interesting. By addressing the behavior rather than the person by addressing the behavior rather than the person Leaders can help individuals understand how their actions affect the team and encourage them to adjust their behavior accordingly.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So instead of saying Greg, you're lazy, it's Greg. When you don't show up to work on time, your colleagues have to cover for you. When they cover for you, they can't make it behavior-based. Behavior-based.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And people are way more willing to listen to feedback that's based on their behaviors rather than personal attacks. You are a blank, as opposed to when you do this. Correct, love it, correct Conflict. Number two task conflict. This is differing opinions on how to complete a task. So there's an organizational objective. I believe we should go left. You believe we should go right. Both will likely get us there, but they might require a different level of input talent, resources. Yes, we can't agree on whether to go left or right.
Speaker 3:We have conflict? We do have conflict. And do you know what I equate this? Remember those old going back to high school, the math classes. You might approach a math problem differently than me. We both get the correct answer. In leadership this happens and you have different leadership strategies, but you still get to a successful outcome. And you have some people that are so stuck on their leadership style yeah, they may get upset with you for approaching it a different way, even though you've had a successful outcome.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, and he talks about differing opinions on how to complete the task and how it's related to plans of action.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he said that you have to avoid personal attacks and assumptions, right? In other words, like if you want to go left and I want to go right, I can't say you're an idiot for wanting to go left or right or vice versa, or I'm smarter than you because I want to go the opposite direction instead, approach it through. Well, greg, if you want to go left, could you tell me why? Help me understand why going left is better?
Speaker 2:than going right yeah, because maybe you figure out that going straight is actually the best direction and neither left nor right was a good idea, right? But like, I think the point here is that we often have a bias, of course, for what we believe to be true being the only correct answer and, rather than trying to figure out what a compromise might be or what an alternate perception might be, we just it's like that whole like listen, like what is it listening to respond rather than listening to understand.
Speaker 3:That's exactly, and I feel like this is sort of rooted in that and that's listeners, that's is don't mind the pun, but listeners. You need to really think about that too yeah as we often just are ready for our response in casual conversations, in leadership discussions, whatever it is, we need to truly authentically listen to the other person before responding yeah, as opposed to listening to defend going right instead of left. Yes, right.
Speaker 2:Let's listen to why you want to go left or right, yeah, status conflict. This is a type of team conflict that involves power struggles and hierarchy within the team, so a lot of times people pull rank.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Well, I told you to do it because I'm this level in the organization and you're just this level in the organization, or middle management empire building. I think of two people at the same level, the same titles or the same status in an organization competing for precious resources, budget, time with the boss, whatever going at each other.
Speaker 3:It could be that how about if there's a position, a key, top leadership position, that's vacant Sure, and then you have your team members that are kind, leadership position, that's vacant Sure, and then you have your team members that are kind of vying for that.
Speaker 2:Sure. Or someone dismissing your input because you're not high enough in the organization or prestigious enough in the organization, or right, oftentimes that's the best advice you'll get. Or overvaluing someone's input because they're high in the organization, that just because you're, you know, have you have the word executive in your title, or you have the word chief in your title, or you have the word director in your title, that you must be right, right, like. I think it works both ways. Right, you might be wrong, oh, definitely.
Speaker 3:And the boss might be overvaluing the input or the opinion Do you know what I found with that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, to avoid this conflict is when I put something out there, I'll say it's just my idea on this, but it's my two cents. But as far as our employees, they may have much better ideas than we're proposing here. Sure, and that's a lot of times. What we do is we ask the employees. They're the ones in the field, they're the ones dealing with these issues, or whatever they may be. They may have the best suggestions for us.
Speaker 2:Yep. The fourth one is sort of similar to task conflict, but it's different. It's called process conflict. So so far we've had relational or relationship conflict, task conflict, status conflict, Process conflict is when there's differing according to David, differing opinions on who should do a task or when someone tries to avoid responsibility. So the way you overcome that is by understanding people's strengths, weaknesses. You can delegate a little bit more efficiently, properly, and you can prevent process conflicts. I also find that if there is no process identified in your organization, like you don't actually have a way that's articulated for how you want to accomplish something, it leaves it to be a little ambiguous and different people have opinions about how to get it done. And absent an identified process, the people that are involved in getting to the outcome will disagree all day long and they'll attribute a failure perhaps to someone's personality, as opposed to attributing the failure to the organization not having a process in place to get it done.
Speaker 3:It's such a good point. And I and we've I know we've talked about systems a lot. You know looking at systems based uh logics. You know when you're, when you're going through a procedures, what we found with with ours. We have great systems in place. I mean I inherited all systems are in great shape. What we notice, though, is we need to look at procedures. So take those systems. But how do we, on a daily basis, work through that sequentially with procedures? Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:It does, and we work in organizations where past practice is important. So how you treat one employee needs to be defensible and similar to, or at least run through the same protocols that you treat every employee. And if you don't know what the process is for how you're going to respond to a request, for example, you're just going to be shooting in the dark and there's a good chance you're going to open yourself up to inconsistent decisions and you'll be judged for those independent decisions, especially if they don't jive. So that's the whole idea of like a standard operating procedure, which is like the corollary to a policy. Sometimes we call them administrative regulations. It's the thing that actually tells you how to implement the policy. Sometimes we forget to write that down, and when it's not written down, it's subject to a lot of arbitrary decisions. Perhaps it depends on who's in the seat at the time?
Speaker 3:Well, here's the thing If the person who's in the seat at the time, well, here's the thing If the person who's in the seat leaves and you don't have these written down, like you said to your point, what are you going to do? What are you going to do?
Speaker 2:You have to start back at square one again, especially if you need to evaluate the current decision based on what was done previously and if nobody knows how the decision was made yeah, and then oftentimes the person who's sort of left making the decision. They get blamed for their incompetence if the process wasn't followed, even if there was no process.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah. So you know, obviously, if you find yourself in that situation all of us find ourselves in this situation it's inevitable that you're going to come across a situation where you don't have an identified procedure. You don't have an identified process, obviously. I think that's where transparency is important and that's where you write it down now and you say moving forward, this is how we're going to do it, right, agreed, and you look at the process every time and you refer to it.
Speaker 2:You revisit it you have to tweak it a little bit. I read a book a long time ago called the Checklist Manifesto.
Speaker 2:It was a surgeon who talked about how you really can increase the likelihood that someone will survive a medical procedure or that their health will get better if doctors or surgeons simply follow a checklist. And some people feel like it's beneath them to follow a checklist, like, oh, I don't need to be told to wash my hands, I don't need to be told to wear clean scrubs, I don't need to be told to double check that the anesthesia matches the patient and there's no allergies, and all these things. All of those things ultimately increase the likelihood that the surgery or the medical procedure will be successful. And I think you see that all the time. If you're ever in the hospital yourself or with someone, they always ask you your birthday, they always check your wristband, they always ask if you have allergies.
Speaker 2:They always like you have to answer that question 17 times because the likelihood that someone might have forgotten to do it is high. It's quality control. It's quality control, but it's also based on the concept that, um, it's not beneath anybody to follow the checklist because it's going to save somebody's life. Yes, so it's not so life and death every time here, but we do a lot of things that impact people's livelihoods and people's education and we need to be consistent in what we do in our practices and do the best we can for our students.
Speaker 2:So that's that's how David Berkus captures the four types of teen conflict. You'll see those all over the internet. So just attribution to him and taking some of the language that he put around those four important concepts related to conflict. As we know right, we've said this before conflict's inevitable. It's going to happen.
Speaker 2:I think it's helpful to have these four lenses. As a leader or as someone in an organization to say, it's one thing to say that you're involved in conflict, it's another thing to identify the kind of conflict. So maybe you don't take it so personally, right? Right, maybe it's not about you or the other person. Maybe it's about process. Maybe it's not about you or the other person. Maybe it's about um task.
Speaker 3:Right, maybe it's about putting the shelves together when you get there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm telling you now, so I hope your daughter doesn't listen to this.
Speaker 3:It sounds like she did great. She did fantastic she actually that sounds like she had the smartest way to do it. She was the conflict resolution right there. She took care of it. She yeah, she's like dad. I got this. Yeah, go inside leadership skill right there dad go inside.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and I walked inside and you came back out and she had it done she had it done, love it, and maria pushed the button for the back tailgate and it shut perfectly, yeah, and they probably looked at each other and then at you, and they probably just shook their head.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, did you call your friend and say uh.
Speaker 3:No, I didn't tell him to step.
Speaker 2:Love it All right, Gregor, what do you say? We wrap this up.
Speaker 3:All right. So we appreciate your support of Lead On with Greg and Mark. In the meantime, let's make it a great day and innovate the USA.
