Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
We invite you to join us as we talk about the world of leadership during times of complexity.
Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
S5: E11 Turning Complaints into Catalysts for Improving Leadership and Engagement
This episode explores the critical value of employee complaints and how they are signals of engagement, indicating areas needing attention in the workplace. Leaders are encouraged to foster a culture of two-way communication and adopt practical strategies for addressing feedback effectively.
• Understanding that complaints reveal employee engagement
• Creating a trusting culture for open dialogue
• Acknowledging and validating employee feelings
• Importance of avoiding quick fixes
• Asking open-ended questions to encourage discussion
• Focusing on future solutions rather than immediate fixes
• Committing to follow-up actions and maintaining communication
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You're listening to Lead On with Greg and Mark, brought to you by the Pennsylvania Association of Intermediate Units. Join us this season as we engage in conversations on leading on through times of complexity. Now for your hosts, Greg and Mark. Let's go gregory.
Speaker 2:Hi there, mark hoffman, how are you wonderful. I have a question. I may have an answer gregory, are you a complainer? I consider myself not to be a complainer.
Speaker 3:A complainer, I consider myself not to be a complainer, but it depends on other how other people see me. Where, in what context are you complaining the most? Do you complain a lot at home?
Speaker 2:only when I'm hangry. Oh, you're hangry if I'm hangry. If I'm hungry, you're whiny I do. And then and my wife knows that immediately- you gotta get some blood sugar up. We got to get dad his coffee or get him something to eat.
Speaker 3:That's so funny. I love that. Yeah, but you try not to be a complainer, I try not to be. I think if he was a go with the flow guy.
Speaker 2:I try to go with the flow.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think as a dad of three and you know an administrator, I think you kind of have to sometimes. You know I complain privately, like you know I complain to you sometimes, obviously. I complained to my wife about things, but usually not in a public context. And, uh, I'm not like one of those like people like in a restaurant that's going to make a scene, I don't think. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's not my thing.
Speaker 3:The reason I asked about complaining is I've got this little blog post here from December 4th 2024. Um, a blog I subscribe to called Leadership Freak. I think a lot of people subscribe to that. I actually think he's in Pennsylvania writing these things. He just shoots out these missives every couple of days, things he's thinking about. This one is all about employee complaints. Seven responses to employee complaints. So full credit to Leadership Freak.
Speaker 3:We're going to just break down some of his ideas here, and I like how he starts it. He says things are worse than you fear when you aren't hearing complaints. I'm going to say that again Things are worse than you fear inside your organization. I'm inserting those words when you aren't hearing complaints, people are lying. If they're not complaining, culture is broken, fear blocks honesty or people are disengaged.
Speaker 3:Tension bubbles below the surface when leaders aren't hearing complaints. I think that's cool. And then he's got this graphic and it says employee complaints indicate that people care about something. If they're not complaining, I don't know that it means they don't care, but if they are complaining, it means that something that they care enough about is bothering them that they're letting you know, or something that they care enough about is bothering them that they're letting you know, or something that they care enough about, is not quite right. That they want you to know, they want you to do something about it, and so I think as, like a young leader, I would often shy away from the idea of someone telling me something critical about the organization. I've grown to love it and appreciate it to his point.
Speaker 2:Okay, so, dr Hoffman, do you have a mechanism set up whereby employees can share their concerns, share their? We've tried lots of different things.
Speaker 3:We've tried like suggestion boxes, forms, all this stuff. None of that works right All of that's artificial.
Speaker 2:I was going to say that won't work.
Speaker 3:And this is like the biggest non-answer that there ever will be. But you have to create a culture where people trust that if they share something negative, they're not going to be retaliated against or held accountable or, even worse, if they share something that nothing happens. Right, if people are screaming into a box and it feels like they're just yelling at the wind, they're not going to continue to do that. You got to cultivate a leadership team that allows for honest, two-way communication with everybody in the organization, and then you got to have people in place to take action when they hear things that aren't right, to fix them. Okay, if you don't do those things, then you'll never hear complain again because people will say why bother?
Speaker 2:You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:So it's kind of a non-answer right. But, like I think it's the leadership team here, I think we have I don't think we have a leadership team here that is responsive to two-way communication with the people they support.
Speaker 2:I think that's a great culture. I know you think it's a soft response but I think it's actually very good. I I think, uh, you're setting up that culture where you have those people like your, your leaders. They have that ability within their teams. Yeah, to help work this out and I and I would say, if something needs to be elevated it comes to me obviously yeah, but a lot of.
Speaker 3:I'm sure a lot of times it's worked out at that department level yeah, listen, and I'm biased, right, I work here and I'm biased right, I work here, right. So I obviously think the people that work here.
Speaker 2:You're your biggest fan, dr Howard. Well, I'm the biggest fan of this organization, that's for sure. I'm a big fan as well.
Speaker 3:I'm a big fan of the people that work here, and that's who. I'm a little biased, right. Yeah, sure, sure. And are there people here that feel like their complaints go unheard?
Speaker 3:Absolutely, absolutely, I'm not naive, but I think, by and large, our organization has made incremental improvements over the last 10 years, over the last 20 years, because I think we take the feedback seriously, like we're undergoing a bit of a little renovation right now. It's because people were complaining about their workspaces, not in an inappropriate way, but in a way that we had to listen and say you know, they have a point, we need new carpet, we need new workspaces, we need things that are modern for 2025, not the stuff that we had from the 80s, right, like, like we listened, we responded, or at least we tried to.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying I definitely know what you're saying. We actually had this conversation with our leadership team yesterday. We were talking about student space. So so, talking about our schools, uh, the classroom space, um, all those kinds of things, and when students, just like you're saying with staff, when they take pride in their environment, it's going to go a further way.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because and like what you're doing here to improve their, their work environment is going to you know what you would hope is. It's going to make for happier employees, more efficient, more efficient, sure.
Speaker 3:People that have greater pride in their workplace, more comfortable, safer, right, all those things. So I think the lesson here that resonated with me like why, of all the blog posts this guy's put out and of all the things that we could be talking about, why I like this one I didn't understand as a young administrator that you need to surround yourself with people who are willing to tell you the truth, and a complaint is someone's version of the truth. You might not agree with it, but if someone's willing to tell you something that makes you uncomfortable or that might be difficult, that person is an asset. That's the person to be embraced. A lot of times, leaders surround themselves with yes people and a yes person doesn't complain and a yes person doesn't tell their boss the truth. The yes person only tells their boss what the boss wants to hear you know what's the worst about that?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's because in front of you and or in that meeting space, you think everything's fine, yeah, and then they would go back to one of somebody in their department or another staff member and then say something opposite.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like we call those parking lot conversations Parking lot conversations the meeting.
Speaker 2:After the meeting yes, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I don't know. We all know people that surround themselves with. Yes, people and their organizations suffer as a result. If you put some contrarians on your team, people that are willing to tell you that you're a little off, you're going to get so much better. It's not that I avoided it, but I definitely didn't embrace it for the value that it brings. I didn't understand it and now I fully understand and embrace it, as difficult and as uncomfortable it might be Right.
Speaker 2:Well, it's good, because then there's no surprises.
Speaker 3:No, surprises, right, and I think if people feel like they have a forum for providing honest feedback, even in the form of a complaint, they're less likely to talk about it outside of that context. To your point, there's fewer parking lot conversations if they can just talk to you. Sure, sure, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:So he's got seven things. Take number one, okay. So what I like about this blog, it's what are the seven responses to the employee complaint? So the first say thanks for bringing this up. So just simply, thanks for bringing this up. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Speaker 3:Yeah, affirm the person, acknowledge the fact that you heard them right and thank them for bringing it up. Thank you for making me aware Right, yeah, it validates it. It also reinforces that it's an acceptable behavior. Number two is let people know their feelings matter. Apologize, even if you didn't do anything wrong. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry that happened to you. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry that you had that experience or whatever.
Speaker 2:And this one sounds hokey. And I'll be honest, it sounds hokey but it is so important. Yeah, because otherwise I mean we can't. How can we, as in a leadership position, look at them and say that their feelings don't matter? Yeah, like we're not them, yeah, so they're obviously interpreting in some way. That's upsetting them. Yeah, customer service people do this all the time we have to have respect for why their feelings, how they're upset, why they're upset.
Speaker 3:When you call customer service to complain about bad service or broken product, you need to return. The sales rep on the other phone always says oh my gosh, thank you for calling. I'm so sorry that happened. They didn't break it, but they're still apologizing. They're owning it. Yeah, I think that's the point. It probably disarms people and lowers the temperature. Yes, you're starting off with thanking them and then you're apologizing to them, so you've already disarmed them twice. Yeah, I think that's the point right.
Speaker 2:I would agree.
Speaker 3:You're validating them and you're acknowledging that this is acceptable. Now, this isn't about people being belligerent, of course, right. This is about people giving an honest complaint or honest feedback. This isn't about people acting ridiculous. We're not going to thank people for acting ridiculous and we're not going to thank people for acting ridiculous and we're not going to apologize for people who act ridiculous.
Speaker 2:All right, number three Okay, avoid offering quick solutions. So don't say explanations. Make you seem out of touch to those who feel unheard Justifications feel like indifference.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's interesting. We talked about this a couple episodes ago, where I had to learn that you don't always offer a solution to a problem. Sometimes people just want to vent.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:So he's telling you this right here Avoid offering quick solutions. They make you seem out of touch and they feel like indifference. Yeah, so just listen, just listen. And then he goes on to say ask questions. So instead of offering solutions, he says ask questions instead. Gentle curiosity feels like compassion. Complaints are opportunities to help people feel heard. Statements express authority. You don't want that bite your tongue. Even if you can't think of a question, say tell me more, tell me more, tell me more. Thanks for bringing that up. I'm sorry that happened. Could you tell me more about that? Could you help me understand?
Speaker 2:I think that's a real simple set of strategies to use that will help you get through this and it gives them more opportunity to talk, to talk, you're going to learn a lot more.
Speaker 3:Yeah, keep going.
Speaker 2:Okay, turn to the future. So suppose employees complain that they aren't supported. Ask them what does support look like to you? Other forward-facing questions include asking how can I help but don't do people's jobs for them?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's not. How can I do this for you? How can I solve this problem? It's, how can I help you.
Speaker 3:There's that old Harvard Business Review Journal article about the monkeys on the back and how a novice or inexperienced or ineffective manager listens to a long line of complaints every day from their subordinates and the subordinates walk in with these problems called monkeys on their back. That's the analogy. And rather than taking the monkey and analyzing it and giving it back to the employee to carry out of the office, an inexperienced manager says I'll tell you what, let me deal with that, let me do that. And by the end of the day, the manager's got everybody else's monkeys except including their own, and everybody else just went home scot-free with no responsibility. The effective manager says let's examine the monkey, let's put it back on your back so that when you walk out of here you leave with your problem, but just in a better position to solve it Right. And I think a lot of inexperienced managers think it's their job to solve everybody's problems.
Speaker 3:Back to our earlier conversation about just listening. Yes, all right, identify one key behavior that needs to happen the next time. Don't try to solve everything. Move forward right. So even if you could just narrow it down to one thing that needs to change oh my gosh, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I'm going to personally make sure that we have soap in the bathrooms. I'm so sorry that the soap dispenser was empty or there were no paper towels, or I'm so sorry that the trash was left behind. We're going to create a schedule to make sure that we. Those are real simple things, right? Yes, I'm making this up, by the way. And what's the last one?
Speaker 2:Last one is set a follow-up meeting when appropriate, and that's not even a must there. So if it rises to the occasion that you need to have a follow-up meeting, do that and it just shows, it further conveys, that you're here to help and it shows that there's going to be follow-up on. What are the next steps?
Speaker 3:Yeah, he says be understanding and focus on progress. I like that one right. Like, sometimes people complain and they expect an immediate resolution or they expect that their solution is going to be the solution that you choose. That's not the answer at all. Right, you've brought a problem to my attention. We're going to work it out. If it is my problem to solve, I'm going to solve it the way that it needs to be solved according to the best interest of the organization, through my lens, and it might not happen overnight Right, it might not happen overnight, and you need to communicate that. Progress is also an indication of taking the issue seriously, even if it's not resolved as quickly as that person wants.
Speaker 2:I'd agree.
Speaker 3:Yeah, all right. So those are seven things in this quick episode of Lean On with Greg and Mark that you can use to respond to employee complaints. I think the big key here, though, for me, regardless of the response, is to surround yourself with people who are willing to tell you when something's not right. We're calling it a complaint for the purposes of this episode, but it could just be the truth.
Speaker 3:Let's say, people who are willing to tell you when things aren't right, and I think the author's point here leadership freak. He's saying that if people never come to you with a concern or a complaint, then they're lying to you by omission. And there's a bigger issue. There's a bigger issue that people don't trust you, or you're too quick to jump in and solve the problem, or you don't ask the right questions, or you get angry and defensive. All these things, these statements, help to control, for so if you're in a position and no one's ever telling you anything, that isn't all just you know peaches and cream and roses and and rainbows and unicorns there's probably something wrong in your organization I'd agree.
Speaker 2:yeah, I'd agree all there's some hidden issues there.
Speaker 3:Definitely. So what do you say? We wrap this one up. What's the pearl of wisdom you've got from that list of outros? Pearl of wisdom, here we go.
Speaker 2:Logam, listeners, keep leading, keep learning and keep laughing, just not all at the same time. This has been Logam, logam out, greg and Mark out. You left me speechless.
Speaker 3:I want to complain about that one. You want to complain, yeah?
Speaker 2:Well, I appreciate that complaint. Thanks for bringing this up.
Speaker 3:Maybe we can talk about it at a later date. That's not what it says. It says to ask questions. I don't want to ask any questions. We're out of time, you're out of touch, out of time All notes, yeah, oh nice.
Speaker 2:You're out of touch.
Speaker 3:I'm out of time.
Speaker 2:Okay, enough, goodbye, bye.
