Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
We invite you to join us as we talk about the world of leadership during times of complexity.
Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
S6: E2 Twelve Life Lessons: Words of Wisdom From Gian-Carlo Rota
What if your best ideas landed cleaner, faster, and stuck longer?
Guided by mathematician and philosopher Giancarlo Rota’s 12 life lessons, we break down a toolkit for memorable talks and better leadership found on the Farnam Street Blog: https://fs.blog/gian-carlo-rota/
If this conversation sharpened your next talk or reset your priorities, share it with a colleague, subscribe for more, and leave a quick review telling us the one change you’ll make this week.
Check out all episodes of Lead On with Greg & Mark on your favorite podcast platform!
Here we go.
SPEAKER_00:Don't stop.
SPEAKER_02:Hello, Gregory. Are you jiggling in here to you? Let me see them hips move. Your hips don't lie.
SPEAKER_01:Hips don't lie. You know it.
SPEAKER_02:You're very kind. You told the NAI to say that I have knowledge. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, listen, I just said a big brain. Big brain.
SPEAKER_02:Look at the brain on.
SPEAKER_01:I know. I don't know how you pit in the door half the time. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02:Is it my ego or my intellect? No.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe all the above. Or I was half right.
SPEAKER_02:All right, here you go. Ready? I have a question.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. I got an answer.
SPEAKER_02:You're um we're both getting older. Yes. Our children are getting older. Yes. We're in positions where we interact with a lot of people, aspiring uh administrators, community members, teachers, parents, whatever, right? In your role and in your life, what's a piece of advice that you find yourself giving over and over again?
SPEAKER_01:So, okay, so this is gonna sound cliche.
SPEAKER_02:Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:But um, it's the time versus money thing.
SPEAKER_02:Go ahead, let me hear.
SPEAKER_01:All the time I'm I'm saying, you know, just you're you're gonna blink and your kids are gonna be going to college and Marie and I are gonna be empty nesters next year.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's weird, right?
SPEAKER_01:In August. You already are.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's weird. In a good way. It's it's weird in a good way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, but I I'd say to enjoy the moment. Enjoy the moment. Enjoy the moment. Put that phone down. Yeah, I I have a lot of staff who have uh babies right now. I'm like, enjoy this. Yeah. You know, don't be wishing your life away. Like that they grow up faster than you know, just enjoy each moment. Yeah, I like that. So that has been consistent advice I've been giving to all the staff. Yeah, I like that. You know, and it's not always about money. And you realize that and you hear that from your elders, you know, all the time. Of course, yeah. But when you live it, you're like, okay, it's about time.
SPEAKER_02:Deathbed regrets, people don't say, God, I wish I worked a few more hours. Exactly. Exactly. I wish I spent my more time with family.
SPEAKER_01:I appreciate that question, though. It's nice.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I um I've been saying two things a lot recently. Bad news doesn't get better with age, which we know is a big micism. Yeah, it is. Right? Like communicate, communicate, communicate. We just had a budget impasse in Pennsylvania for anybody that's not paying attention to Pennsylvania politics, a five-month budget impasse, and we were communicate communicating quite regularly here just about what the what the facts were. And in the event that there would have been bad news, which locally we were able to stave off the the negative effects um for the time that we had, but it was like no surprises. Here's what we know, um, and here's the help that we need. The other thing is like follow your North Star. I still love that one too. Yeah, like what's your mission? Like, what is the thing that guides you towards your own definition of ethics, integrity, and values? And like, will that decision take you closer to it or further away from it? Does associating with that person get you closer to it or further away from it, right? Like does doing that behavior get you closer to it or further away from it? Um that one wouldn't have resonated with me when I was younger, not because I didn't understand it, but because I don't think I ever sat down to figure out what my north star was. I just assumed I knew what it was. But like to actually go through the exercise of figuring out what your north star is. Um the reason I ask about, excuse me, advice. I've got an article here that I thought was pretty interesting. It's called the 12 life lessons for mathematician and philosopher Giancarlo Rota. Um he's um uh a mathematician, a polymath, someone who's you know, well versed in all of the various philosophical and mathematical concepts. And in 96 he gave a talk entitled 10 Lessons I Wish I Had Been Taught. And those um became these 12 life lessons that he's published. And the interesting thing is he says, Rota began by explaining the advice we give others often is the advice we need to follow the most. It's just sort of interesting, right? Like it really is. Like it's a good reminder, or like it resonates with you, right? Like so it's advice that made sense to you, and so at some point in your life, and so of course you think it makes sense to everybody. But like it has to be the perfect time and connection for the advice that you're giving to even be heard, let alone understood and accepted and implemented. From the receiver. Correct. Yeah. I mean, just telling somebody something doesn't mean anything, right? I mean, how much advice have we both received that we probably never even Right, because the context it would justn't line up? Right. You know, and and like to your point about like time, it's like a great piece of advice to give someone when their kids are young, but they won't truly understand what it means until their kids are older and they go, gosh, I remember when Greg said this was gonna go in a blink of an eye. I didn't believe him. Yeah. And yet here I am now telling everybody the same thing.
SPEAKER_01:And you know, I'm seeing it because we have, you know, my biggest uh one of the one of the biggest hurdles I have at my current job is succession planning. Sure. So I'm seeing a lot of great leaders retiring. And I hear it from them as well, you know, with this whole piece with time and um because they're not only reflecting on their personal life with their families, they're reflecting on their career. Yeah. You know, and just thinking about all the good, the good experiences they had.
SPEAKER_02:So this is from mathematician and philosopher Giancarlo wrote uh 12 life lessons. There's 12, so let's move, shall we?
SPEAKER_01:Let's we shall.
SPEAKER_02:All right, I'm gonna read a little verbatim here. Every lecture, this is number one, every lecture should make only one point. I love that, right? You know, pr presenters uh often try and cram everything they know in one presentation.
SPEAKER_01:You know, keep it one uh around one topic.
SPEAKER_02:What's one topic and what's one point? Every lecture, he says, should state one main point and repeat it over and over, like a theme with variations. Um he says an audience is like a herd of cows. How eloquent. Moving slowly in the direction they're being driven towards. When we wish to communicate with people, whether in an article, an email to a coworker, a presentation, a text to a partner, and so on. It's often best to stick to making one point at a time. This matters all the more, all the more so when we're trying to get our ideas across to a large audience. So I like that. Stick, yeah, stick to the point. Don't overdo it. You're making a big presentation. What's the keep the main thing the main thing?
SPEAKER_01:And you know what I like is the stories. I needed to hear that when I was younger. I I did too. I always felt like I always felt like I had to get all the information out. And with this, it's more so about that connection. So if you just have one topic and then you could use personal stories to drive that home, so much more effective. And that's what people remember. They remember the stories.
SPEAKER_02:Number two, never run over time. He says, after 50 minutes, which is a microcentury, as Von Neumann used to say. Of course, everybody knows what Von Newman can do. I love Von Neumann. He was a good guy. After 50 minutes, everyone's attention will turn elsewhere, even if we're trying to prove the Ryman hypothesis. Wow, this guy is brainy. Yes. One minute over time. I like this last sentence though, right? One minute over time can destroy the best of lectures. This reminds me of advice I once got from a professor when I was getting my doctor. He said, better to leave a year too early than a year too late. So better to end a presentation or a meeting ten minutes too early than ten minutes too late.
SPEAKER_01:Keep them wanting more. I love it. That is awesome.
SPEAKER_02:But people will remember that you were late, not that uh what the what the content was, and they'll appreciate you for me a little early.
SPEAKER_01:And what do people usually remember? The last like minute of your presentation.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, they remember how you made how how the how you made them feel, right?
SPEAKER_01:And yeah, that too.
SPEAKER_02:And if you don't respect them because of the time, right? And that's it. They're gonna remember the last thing. Three, relate to your audience as you enter the lecture hall. So he's like talking to professors here. As you enter the lecture hall, try to spot someone in the audience whose work you have some familiarity with. Rearrange your presentation as to manage to mention some of that person's work. I see people do this all the time. They do little shout outs, they see someone in the audience, they try to build rapport. Oh, my buddy Greg's here. Oh, Greg, welcome. Oh, and you try to like do a little banter.
SPEAKER_01:I would say you actually do this very well. And the meetings that I've been in with you with the execs, I mean it's it's awesome. Yeah, you have a way of connecting. Oh, that's very kind. Those kinds of things. So thank you for that. I I appreciate it because it it uh, especially if it's a stressful meeting, because you bring it brings it down a notch a little bit. Well, thanks in a good way.
SPEAKER_02:He says that everyone in the audience has come to listen to your lecture or to your meeting, right? With the secret hope of hearing their work mentioned. So I think that's like if you're going to see a keynote and you know them, I think people secretly want that shout out. They want to be seen as like connected to the person who's talking. They do. Yeah, a little social capital. We talked about that in the last episode, capital and trust. All right, ready? I'm ready. Gregory, give people something to take home. I often meet in airports in the street and occasionally in embarrassing situations, MIT alum who have taken one or more of my courses. Most of the time they admit that they'd forgotten the subject of the course course and all the mathematics I taught them. However, they'll gladly recall some joke, some anecdote, some quirk, some side remark, or some mistake I made. So they don't remember the content, but they remember him like his personality. So they remember my dad jokes, probably. Probably. From my data base. Exactly. But it's yes, I'm just ignoring that. Yeah. But it's uh it's back to what we just said. Yeah. They don't remember the content, they remember how the professor made them feel.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, most definitely. And you can get that vibe uh fr from many speakers that they have that energy and they're you know, they bring that to you. You know, it's it's good stuff.
SPEAKER_02:Greg, make sure the blackboard is spotless. So if you're teaching a lesson here, by starting with a spotless blackboard, you'll subtly convey the impression that the lecture they're about to hear is equally spotless. So, you know, if you're gonna do a presentation, have the room tidy, have it clean.
SPEAKER_01:Let's bring that to the year 2025. Because I think some of our listeners might not know what a blackboard is. You want to tell them what it is? So it was this thing, uh, kids, it was this thing that we used to use when we were good. These little pieces of chalk, and we used to, you know, write with the chalk. The professor or the teacher would write with the chalk, and then they had these things called erasers, and then they would chalk. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I think the analogy here is less about the chalkboard to your point, and more about the idea of what he says. Presentation matters. Yes. If you're trying to persuade someone, the way our work, this they read, they write, excuse me, the way our work looks influences how people perceive it. Taking the time to clean our hypothetical, theoretical blackboard signals to the audience or to your listener that you care about what you're doing and that you considered it important enough. It's like inviting someone into your home. Yeah, you clean it before you have guests.
SPEAKER_01:And it's like a black, uh blank canvas kind of a thing.
SPEAKER_02:But it signals to the person that you matter enough to me that before you came to my house, I made it welcoming and clean and enjoying. I love that analogy. I think that's what yeah. Are you ready for the next one? I'm ready. Make it easy for people to take notes. I love this one. I often encourage people here when we do presentations to create scaffolded structured note sheet so that you know if I want you to get some content, I'm gonna give you a handout in advance that is structured in the same path as my presentation so that you can follow along and hit the main points. I mean, I did that when I was a teacher all the time. I always love skeletal notes. Yeah, right. That kind of thing. Yeah, good stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh share the same work multiple times. Um you would develop your ideas as you lecture, in other words. And so the more you work with your ideas, the more refined they become. As opposed to putting it out there once and thinking that it's done, things evolve, things improve, things get better.
SPEAKER_01:Mastering your craft.
SPEAKER_02:I get it. He says the author who's talking about Rhoda says a writer might start by sharing an idea as a tweet. This gets a good response. And the replies help the author expand it into a blog post. From there, they keep reworking the post over several years, making it longer and more definite each time. They give a talk on the topic and eventually it becomes a book. So like a caterpillar growing into a butterfly.
SPEAKER_01:I see it.
SPEAKER_02:As opposed to just that random tweet out there, oh, there's people interacting with it, I don't need to do anything with it. No, take it and run. Mold it.
SPEAKER_01:There's a name for that. It's like a community uh response system. Like a crowdsource. Crowdsource, thank you. Crowdsource, yeah. And it develops into something all new. It's great.
SPEAKER_02:Gregory, you are more likely to be remembered for your expository work. Do you even know what that means? I don't. Expository work. No, it's that uh sometimes you uh publish in one area or another. He realized that many uh mathematicians he admired the most were known more for their work explaining and building upon the existing knowledge as opposed to the uh their new work. Creating their new own knowledge. I like to think that we do this, right? We take other people's work and we try to make it accessible to other people. So it's not necessarily original ideas, it's our original take on someone else's established idea like we're doing right now. Yeah. I like accessible and relatable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. How do you make this um consumable, relatable? I love that, I love those words you used. Yeah. Every mathematician has only a few tricks. Mathematicians, even the very best, also uh rely on a few tricks, which they use over and over and over again. We don't need to be amazing at everything to do high quality work. The smartest and most successful people are only good at a few things or even just one thing. So their secret is that they maximize those strengths and don't get distracted. They define their circle of competence and don't attempt things they're not good at if there's any room to double down further on what's already going on well. So, in other words, exploit in the best way possible your assets and strengths. That sounds like keep refining it. Yeah, and there's you're yeah, like you're good at like that's what base your career around something you're good at. That's it. Don't worry about small mistakes. I love this. There's two kinds of mistakes. There are fatal mistakes that destroy a theory, but there are also contingent ones which are useful in testing the stability of the theory. Right? So not all mistakes are bad. Um, and on and on this last one I think is interesting. He says, write informative introductions. As with the lesson of don't run over time, respect that people have limited time and attention. Introductions are all about explaining what a piece of work is going to be about, what its purpose is, and why someone should be interested in it. I often forget to do that. If I'm giving a presentation, I'll jump right in. I don't always foreshadow what presentation I'm about to give and why someone should care. And so I need I need to remember this one.
SPEAKER_01:Definitely. There's the only cliche.
SPEAKER_02:What you want to get across with how do you tell the audience what they should even be primed for?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because you can miss the mark completely. Well, right, and the and and or you could hit the mark, but the audience thank you. But the audience might not even know what they're supposed to be listening for because you never told them. Yeah. There's that old management cliche. Tell them what you're gonna tell 'em. Tell them. Tell them what you told them. Start with, you know, a description of what you're going to say, say it, and then r tell them what you told 'em. Tell you know, say what you said. So that's three different opportunities. Yeah, and this this first one is don't forget to tell people at the very beginning what it is that you're about to present.
SPEAKER_01:So those are wrote as 12. Yeah, that it'll change the way they're they're thinking about it. Yeah. So uh those are his twelve. Uh do you have a favorite mathematician? So I have not a favorite mathematician, but I what I took, I have ever been asked that question. I have a favorite math teacher, my cousin Josh. He's a math teacher in New Jersey. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Shout out to Josh. Jersey Josh?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Jersey Josh. Oh, I think he's a good guy. Yeah. So I was thinking about math, and I it I find it interesting that a mathematician came up with this article. Go ahead. And I think math is one of those only subjects that's finite. It's either right or wrong.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And I know there's there's certain, you know, you could always find some kind of mathematical principle that, you know, will be different from that. But math problems have one solution. There's many ways to get to that one solution. Yeah. I just I just think with the mind of a mathematician, you could tell that a mathematician wrote that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Very formulaic, actually. Yes. This is his formula for how to be successful in communicating um confusing or complicated information to a large audience.
SPEAKER_01:Because his was all about refining, refining, refining until you master your craft. That's what I heard a common thread throughout the whole thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think if this was a scientist writing this, it would have a whole different connotation. It might have a whole different connotation, a whole different thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there's a lot of intentionality here. He said, okay, I'm going to do a lesson. What are the 12 things I have to do in order for this to work every time? And those were his tricks, right? Yeah. And one of the things was tricks. It was. You know, rely on them. So he obviously relied on these things over and over again for his career to be successful. That's it. Well, what do you say? We wrap this one up now that we've talked about the 12 life lessons from mathematician and philosopher Giancarlo Rota.
SPEAKER_01:I we need a dad joke or two before I have math dad jokes. Can I give one or two of them?
SPEAKER_02:I would love. You know, I'm a sucker for a dad.
SPEAKER_01:So this goes with the theme of six, seven. What why was six afraid of seven?
SPEAKER_02:Do you want me to tell you? Seven, eight, nine.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. It's still funny. Sorry. Um, what's a math teacher's favorite place in New York?
SPEAKER_02:Uh Times Square. Love it. You got it.
SPEAKER_01:Ding ding ding ding ding. What else? Um why do plants hate math? Why do plants hate math? Because it gives them square roots. Oh my god, I love that. This was an old one here. Oh, here's a new one. What do you call friends who love math? Algebra's. It's good, right? Yeah. I'll stop there. I'm gonna stop there. Episode two, season six. Season six. Successfully in the book. That's right. And a new theme song. Let's hear it. I would love to hear from our listeners if they like it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think the reactions are going to be immediate and definite, right? People are either gonna love it or hate it. Good or bad. All right. Hit me with it. Go ahead. Here it is. Oh wow. Here it comes.
unknown:Here we go.
SPEAKER_00:Don't stop.
SPEAKER_02:It's also commercial. Please let them get it.
SPEAKER_00:Don't miss the chance.
SPEAKER_01:I know you're dancing in your cards right now.
unknown:Get ready to prove.
SPEAKER_02:Nicely done. Have a great day.
