Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
We invite you to join us as we talk about the world of leadership during times of complexity.
Lead On with Greg & Mark (LOwGaM)
S6: E5 Turning 50, Dodging Back Spasms, And Smashing Toilets For Science... And Why It's Important for Leaders To Be Curious
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A little 80s nostalgia opens the door to a bigger conversation: why curiosity beats certainty for modern leaders. After trading theme songs, fashion misses, and sitcom houses with secret passages, we shift into the practical work of building teams where people feel safe to question, challenge, and improve ideas without fear.
We unpack the deep link between curiosity, vulnerability, and authenticity. Admitting you don’t know isn’t weakness; it’s the fastest path to better data and smarter decisions. We talk about the pressure leaders feel to have answers, and why trading the performance of confidence for the practice of listening changes everything. You’ll hear concrete ways to create psychological safety, from setting clear norms to modeling the habit of asking real questions and reflecting back what you heard.
Then we tackle the HIPPO problem: the highest paid person’s opinion. When the boss speaks first, diversity of thought collapses. Our fix is simple and transformative—leaders go last. Let the room explore, get the edges on the table, then synthesize, stress test, and make the call. We share the “two-question pause” to slow fast reactions, plus a toolkit for balancing inquiry with decisiveness: define decision criteria, timebox debate, and tie choices back to mission and strategy. By the end, you’ll have a playbook to turn meetings into engines of clarity instead of echo chambers.
If you’re leading a team or hoping to shape one, this is your map for turning curiosity into an everyday habit that lifts trust, speed, and outcomes. Listen, share with a colleague who needs it, and tell us: what’s one norm your team will adopt this week? Subscribe and leave a quick review to help more people find the show.
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Cold Open And 80s Banter
SPEAKER_01It's not about the spotlight. It's not about the birthday.
SPEAKER_03I said it man. I said it man. So you look at the reggae, man. All right, name that show. I said it man.
SPEAKER_02I say that would be the Cosby show.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah. Early, early, early, early Cosby show. One of Denise's man. So you look at the reggae.
SPEAKER_02Gregory. It's nice
Catching Up And Turning Fifty
SPEAKER_02to be back. Dr.
SPEAKER_03Hoffman. Dr. Kunz. Hey, welcome back to Bucks County. It's been a while. It really has been. It's been a couple months. It's been a couple months. People are harassing me about where the episodes are.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I've been harassed as well. And uh big 50 for me, buddy. In the meantime. Oh January 28th. I turned uh yeah, turned 50. 50 years. Yeah. Oh, half a century. Half a century, and you're gonna love this. Go ahead. I had to get lumbar support for my car.
SPEAKER_03You know you're old when you have back spasms.
SPEAKER_02When I hit 45, I got my first back spasm. Yeah, literally. I was at a way at the conference where you were, and uh I literally bent over to put my shoes on. I'm like, oh you tweaked it. I tweaked it. Did you have a spasm? It was just you'd still be in pain if you had a spasm. No, it was it was not that major. But it was enough to you know meet me. To remind you? That's Mother Nature reminding you. Yeah. It's like, yeah, you're 50 now. It's lower back. Welcome. Welcome to the world of 50.
SPEAKER_03Crazy. Crazy, man. Aman.
SPEAKER_02Aman. Aman. So let's go with some 80s
Rapid-Fire 80s Nostalgia
SPEAKER_02trivia. It's my turn to ask Dr. Hoffman some questions.
SPEAKER_0380s trivia. I have trivia for you too, but we'll save that for another episode. Maybe another episode. Okay. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02So fun, fast, nostalgic 80s questions. Here's your first one. Okay. What 80s TV theme song lives rent-free in your brain? What 80s TV theme song? I know.
SPEAKER_03So I'm getting I I I got the I got it. The hint is in the question. Lives rent free.
SPEAKER_02So mine was Greatest American Hero, just so you know.
SPEAKER_03Oh, you're asking me questions.
SPEAKER_02I thought those were trick questions. No, this is not trick questions. I just want you. I just want you to come up with one.
SPEAKER_03Easy. I got it. What is that? Here we are, face to face, a couple of silver spoons. You know that's not silver spoons. Ricky Schroeder. Ricky Schroeder. Yeah. Yeah, that was cool. With two of a kind. Making it up. Making it grow. Two cas. All right, anyway. I'm not a singer, so I really apologize for that, everybody. Silver spoons lives right free in my head. Okay. Sorry.
SPEAKER_02Next question. Next question. What 80s fashion trend should never come back?
SPEAKER_03What 80s fashion Z Cavaricis? Help me with that. You don't remember Z's? Z Cavaricis and Mary Garound t-shirts, they were the big, they were almost like MC Hammer pants. They were pleated and baggy at the waist and then real tight. And then on the zipper, that was a white like tag that was sewn down vertically. I remember. And they were like a hundred bucks back in the 80s, which was like an insane amount of money to pay today, let alone the 80s. Though Z's might have been the 90s, but that's close enough. I'm going to go Z. Cavaricis. You can you can fact check me on whether that was like 93 or 88. I have no idea. Okay. All right. I love great answer. All right. What about you? What's yours?
SPEAKER_02So so mine is jams.
SPEAKER_03Very similar. Similar.
SPEAKER_02Like baggy pants, right? Baggy jams. I mean, I I think I wore them to the prom one year.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think before we talked about skids, too. Remember skids? Not skid marks.
SPEAKER_02Not skid marks. Let's let's clarify. All right. So um, all right, I digress. Uh so uh the next one is uh which 80 sitcom house would you want to live in?
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's a great question. Uh how about Webster? Because didn't Webster's house have all the secret passages?
SPEAKER_02It's like behind the clock stuff. Yeah, all those passageways, yeah.
SPEAKER_03You remember what the last name of the family was? Papadopoulos. Papadopoulos, that's right.
SPEAKER_02That's right, Mr.
SPEAKER_03Papadopoulos. And he called her ma'am. Yeah. George Papadopoulos.
SPEAKER_02All good stuff. And I have one final one. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. If you were cast in an 80s teen movie, which stereotype would you be? The jock, the nerd, the rebel, or the popular kid?
SPEAKER_03Um, I was the like the I was in like a punk rock band in high school. Right. So what do you think? I guess it's closer to I I wasn't a rebel. I wasn't causing problems, but I would probably be friends more with the rebel. Yeah. I would have been instigating the rebel to do bad things. Gotcha. I would have been like the rebels like whispering in his ear, oh, go do this.
SPEAKER_02Okay. That's it lined up exactly with what I thought you were gonna say. What would you have been? Uh were you with the jacks? I kind of was. Yeah, I was. But I kind of got along with everyone. So did I. You know my personality. Yeah, I didn't I didn't have trouble in high school. Yeah. I mean, I honestly I, you know, we had all different different clicks. All different clicks, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but I in in high school, like you know, before uh at least my high school was you got there early and then you sat in the part of the high school, like before classes started with like your click. Yes, right. So I always sat with like the goths, the freaks, the punk rock kids, the skaters, the metalheads. That was my crew.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. It makes sense. Makes sense.
SPEAKER_03But yeah. I I like it. I like it. Well,
From Trivia To Leadership Curiosity
SPEAKER_03did you say what house you wanted to live in?
SPEAKER_02Um, I didn't, but you know, I just saw some recent footage of the Brady Bunch house. Uh-huh. And it's pretty cool. You'd have to share a room, though. But they didn't update it at all. Like that place would need to be updated. It's all like 70s retro.
SPEAKER_03Did you you had to share a room growing up, so that wouldn't be weird.
SPEAKER_02It wouldn't be weird. No, I had two with two brothers. Yeah. So just like the Brady Bunch. Just like the Brady Bunch. We had uh the you know, the bunk beds and I had the trundle underneath. Yeah. And it was back with wrestling. So Paul and Steve would, you know, they'd wrestle and they'd give it super flash snooka right up on top.
SPEAKER_03You know, the people's elbow off the well, that's the rock, but the elbow off the uh the Rainy Macho Man Savage elbow off the top rope.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right into the ribs. Right into the ribs. Good to see you, brother.
SPEAKER_03It's good to be back.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's good to be seen. Good questions, I like it. Yeah. So uh I have more questions for future episodes, just so you know. I love it. Bring them on. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Oh, wait.
SPEAKER_02All right. So I I was thinking about this piece of leadership, curiosity.
SPEAKER_03Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02All right. So I think I'm thinking when you go through some someone you go through um elementary school, you
Vulnerability And Authenticity Defined
SPEAKER_02lose that curiosity. You you lose you kind of group dynamics makes you afraid to bring things up, new ideas, those kinds of things.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, social pressures.
SPEAKER_02Social pressures, yeah. So I really do feel uh that we need to bring more curiosity to the leadership table. Right? Would you agree?
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, you need a a safe some psychological safety, a safe place psychologically for people to feel free to question things, push back, uh ask for clarification. Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_02That's exactly what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and so like if the leader doesn't set the right tone, or if there are jerks on the cabinet or the team, right? Uh ain't gonna happen, right? Because people are gonna be afraid that if I'm if I say something, people are gonna attack me or roll their eyes or whatever, right? Exactly. Exactly. You almost say like norms that say this is a safe space and the leader's gonna enforce the fact that it's a safe space. You got it. Exactly. So what do you got?
SPEAKER_02So what I what I have here is an article called How the Art of Curiosity Transforms Leadership. All right.
SPEAKER_03So um written by uh looks like it's written by Colleen Bashar or Bashar. Yeah, Forbes council member. That's it.
SPEAKER_02So this could this is a Forbes article here. So it starts off saying we've all heard Curiosity Killed the Cat. And then it goes, uh, it talks about these uh these leadership pillars of vulnerability and authenticity. So there's curiosity, vulnerability, authenticity, and how important that is. So being vulnerable, you know, putting putting that out there so that you may receive criticism is the way I look at that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Vulnerability is a willingness to um be perceived as um incorrect or weak or in or or fallible or correctable, right? You're you're being you're you're sharing something that would otherwise be guarded.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yeah. Right. And then authenticity, and I uh Mark, I think you do this very well, is you you show up, you're your true self. And I've seen you whether whether it's in a business meeting, right? Leadership meeting or in in your personal life, you you you're authentic in what you you know, what you bring to the table.
SPEAKER_03Well, I feel I feel the same way about you with both of these things. I don't think we'd get along if I didn't think you were authentic or that you didn't show vulnerability. You know, you're you you model vulnerability actually in every season and almost every episode of this podcast because you're always willing to tell personal stories. Yeah. That's a level of vulnerability that I don't necessarily have. You share more about your private life than I do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it absolutely. And uh speaking to that, I forgot to bring up when I was a kid, when I was a toddler, I was a recluse. Like I was I I was trouble. You know, I like I eat so much sugar, everything else.
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, and Snickers bars were your primary motivation. Snickers bars. I do anything.
SPEAKER_02Shout out to like maybe season two. What would you do for a Snickers bar? Exactly. Yeah. I'd do anything for a Snickers bar. So um, let me see that scar, by the way. Where's the scar on your forehead? Yeah, right there. Right there.
SPEAKER_03And then how's the scar healing on your hand? It it's your two favorite friends on your group thread.
SPEAKER_02They keep asking. They don't think it's real. They I had to show them in person.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he he definitely I mean, there's there's a photo of your hand close up where they've they've run it through AI to see if you're like putting makeup on your hand to create a scar.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. I know. They yeah, they have all these theories. I've defended you each time. So, like I was said, I was a really rambunctious kid, and I did a couple different things out of curiosity. Uh, one was I stuck a bead up my nose.
SPEAKER_03I love that.
Childhood Curiosity Stories
SPEAKER_02It was a yellow bead, and my mom they couldn't get the bead out. Okay so I had to go to the ER. And it was right when, you know, we had the electronic doors, and I'm just going back and forth through the doors. Yeah, and some lady put her head out. My mom didn't want to talk to anybody because she was embarrassed that I had a bead up in my nose. Love this. So this other lady looks over at my mother and is like, What's wrong with your boy? And she said, he has a bead in his nose.
SPEAKER_03So she's like, Where do you want me to start?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, right. There's there was a whole list. So they had to go with, you know, uh tweezers. Tweezers. They had to get up there and they they said it, they they they said it could have damaged the adenoid there. Yeah. So uh that was one of my curiosity pieces.
SPEAKER_03Ask my wife if she knows anyone who put hollyberries up their nose when they were kids. Well, ask her if she knows anyone who did it. I won't say who did it, but ask her if she knows anyone. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So the other story, and my mother my mother would always tell these stories at you know, family parties and everything else. So the other one is about I I took a hammer to the back of a toilet. Oh, like the uh uh, the water tank. And it went all over the place. And when they asked me why I did it, I said I wanted to hear what it sounded like. Oh my god. And so she would tell these stories all the time. But I'm my parents were very patient people putting up with me.
SPEAKER_03Well, oh, clearly. And and and thank God they cultivated your curiosity. Look how far it's taken you.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I know.
SPEAKER_03But it's you smashed a toilet recently? I have not. Have you shoved beads up your nose recently? No. So you learned. I learned.
SPEAKER_02I didn't do it again. I didn't do it again. So uh so so back so back to this leadership article. Yeah, I got it. And I really I mean, it really should be innate. Like we talk about when we're kids, we're naturally curious. Something happens along the way as you're doing uh with development that you lose this and you're worried about the group dynamics, you're worried about saying the wrong thing, trying the wrong thing, all these kinds of things. But when you look at a leadership team,
Curiosity As A Leadership Practice
SPEAKER_02that is a great, great quality. And it says here, curiosity is an art form, is what they say in the article. And they say, we must also never stop listening and seeking to better understand. This is how leaders tap into the power of curiosity. It says here, be willing to be wrong.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That I love that. Yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_03Um I I like where Colleen goes on in this article to talk about when you're in a leadership position, there's a lot of pressure around proving your worth and having the answers, particularly in an unhealthy culture. Right. Um, and I think at least I found in my career when I was not in the CEO position, when I was in like a cabinet position or when I was in a teaching position, I always appreciated it when my principal or when my boss or my executive director, when they were willing to admit that they didn't know something. I liked that better than having bosses who were definitive about their opinions, even though they probably weren't correct. I always thought it was refreshing to have a boss who was willing to say, I don't know, or to have a boss who says, um who had a lot of questions.
SPEAKER_02And that's the ambiguity.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like I I liked the boss who was willing to be vulnerable, right, about not knowing, and also have the curiosity to ask questions because I felt like that made the team stronger. Why not gave safety to the whole group to say, well, if the boss is willing to say he doesn't know or she doesn't know, then I can. And also modeling that a boss's job isn't always to rule or make a decision, but maybe to ask questions that make the idea better.
SPEAKER_02I love that you said that because they this is a great segue in the article here. It says leaders can cultivate a cur culture of curiosity by leading by example. And there's three approaches. One being to listen to understand instead of listening to respond. Second is just like you said, ask a lot of questions. Yeah. And then the third is let the person know they've been heard by reflecting on what they've said using their own words. And I think we don't do that enough. Like listen, like actively listen and then clarify, like repeat what they've said just so they know you're listening.
SPEAKER_03You know the hippo theory in leadership, H I P P O hippo? Uh ex explain. It's the highest paid person's opinion.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03That's the HIPPO.
The HIPPO Effect And Speaking Last
SPEAKER_03Okay. H and I go together, highest paid person's opinion. And the theory is there that in any business meeting where the norms aren't established that um that it's safe to have an opinion or whatever, it's often that people defer to the hippo, which is they defer to the highest paid person's opinion. The highest paid person in the room or in the conversation. And so if you are the hippo and you own the hippo, right, you o you you are the highest paid person with an opinion, oftentimes people who don't feel safety will wait to chime in until they hear the hippo and then they just jump on board and repeat it or validate it. Right. Over and over. Right, because they want to be seen as being having affinity towards the leader. Yes. Right? So a trick to avoid that, if you are the hippo or you have the hippo, you have the highest paid person's opinion, you you are the highest paid person with an opinion. The trick to avoid it is to not say anything until everyone has chimed in and then rule or ask questions about what it is that you have thoughts on, right? But if the leader speaks first. And you're saying as the as the leader, as the CEO. Yeah, as the leader, you should never be the first or second person to talk. You should always, to the best of your ability, and everybody struggles with this, myself included, my God, you should let other people speak first because the minute you open your mouth as the hippo, there's the potential that you've tainted everyone's perspectives if they want to be uh seen as agreeable. Now, if you don't have a yes man culture or a yes woman culture, it's not that big of a deal because it'll naturally happen.
SPEAKER_02People will push back anywhere uncomfortable pushing back. You have an environment where it's it's a safe environment for bringing up your but if you don't have that environment, then the hippo should always speak last.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Again, another great segue. I and I love that. Um I think we I think a lot of leaders do that, they've learned to do that without actually I've never heard it called that. Yeah, highest paid person's opinion. Yeah, that's the highest. I think that's great. Um and then the other uh so the segue here, go from opinionated to approachable. I like that. That is what it talks about. It says the person literally uh it says when you go this way, the person will literally relax in front of your eyes, going from
From Opinionated To Approachable
SPEAKER_02a posture of defense into one of openness and receptivity because they're being heard.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. You know, they're and um you know the what's the counter to all this, in my opinion? Uh at some point, if you're in charge, you gotta make a decision. Yes. I mean, you can't keep asking questions to ad nauseum, right? I mean, like at some point you gotta say, these are the facts that we have. We've asked enough questions, we gotta decide, right? Like, I mean, it's at some point you gotta be the executive making a decision, regardless of your role, right?
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell I'm with you. And I I like that idea of waiting that that that CEO or that top paid position, uh waiting until the end to wrap it up and bring it together.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, or to ask questions.
SPEAKER_02Or ask questions, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Or have we thought about because in theory, if you're the highest paid person, not always, but usually, sometimes, whatever you want to work with there, you're the most experienced person. Not always, not always, not always. But you're in that position for a reason, right? Um, whether you earned it or not, you're in that position. You should be in a position to uh uh see the bigger picture and to listen to the diverging ideas and with the knowledge you have outside of that meeting of the bigger picture, say, okay, well, when I take this up the chain, here's what I'm gonna be asked. Help me think through it. Or, hey, this doesn't match the larger organizational strategy because I was just in another meeting with my boss, and this doesn't match. How do we how do we cultivate this and shape it so that it matches? Right, like that's your job as the translator, as the middle manager, sure. To take your team's ideas and make them fit into the larger organizational ideas.
SPEAKER_02Tying to your mission, tying to, you know, every yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and you can't do that on your own. You have to do that with the input of your team. And how do you do that? By being curious, asking questions.
SPEAKER_02That's great. That's great. Um, some
Two-Question Pause And Team Norms
SPEAKER_02closing thoughts on this article. They said the art of curiosity is simple but difficult to put into practice. It really is. I mean, you need to and be intentional about this uh when you're going through. It's a it reminds you to pause after listening and ask at least two questions before you respond. So that's you know how does it how does that make you feel? How does that make me feel?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_02About make forcing myself to ask two questions before I respond. Yeah, I just asked you two questions. You did. You asked me two questions.
SPEAKER_03I on this, so here, let me be vulnerable.
SPEAKER_02You were very intentional. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Let me be a little vulnerable here. On this, when I was reading this, uh, I say sometimes I in particular, I'm gonna make this about me. You can I'm not making two. When we're talking here, sometimes I'm quick to jump in. I'm not asking questions because we're having a conversation, I'm getting all fired up, right? So this reminded me, oh, I better pause, let Craig finish, not jump in. Sit back a bit. And and listen, ask questions. But I just asked you two questions and I freaked you out.
SPEAKER_02You did freak me out.
SPEAKER_03Because that's not our vibe. It is not our vibe. Right. We used to just jumping in. Right. But isn't that interesting? That's really interesting. Did you see how different that felt by me asking you how it made you feel and what do you think about it?
SPEAKER_02You looked at me like a deer in headlights, and I loved it.
SPEAKER_03But but but if that was our normal vibe, and then instead I was jumping all over you, you'd be like, whoa, what's off with this vibe? Right.
SPEAKER_02So a lot of this depends on dynamics, right? It really does. And and knowing your team members and honestly setting that the stage, like setting that environment where curiosity is embraced.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and you know, I we've talked about norms before. I want to do an episode at some point in the future about norms and the things that I've learned about norms. Um I don't mean like norm on cheers, but like uh norm, you know, like expectations of behavior and uh guiding principles for how a team operates. Yep. Um, this has to be a part, I think, of a healthy team norm. And it's not enough to just say, we're going to be curious on this team. You can't legislate that.
SPEAKER_02It needs to be modeled in uh and enforced.
SPEAKER_03And enforced. So if you find that you're on a team and and someone is not allowing that to happen or someone's jumping, you have to say, wait, remember, one of our norms. Let's go back to the norms. And there's lots of ways to
Season Plans, Jingles, And Closing
SPEAKER_03do that that I've learned over the last couple of years. I wasn't always a fan of norms, but uh I've really come to embrace them. I want to do an episode on that. But I think this I think all of those things have to be considered, I think, in a healthy team dynamic.
SPEAKER_02I'm with you. I'm with you on that. It's uh absolutely um and I I I do like the idea of talking about norms and like setting like before a meeting starts, making sure that you know everybody knows the expectations.
SPEAKER_03Maybe later this season I'll put something together for us. Yeah, that'd be great. I want to talk about that. That'd be great.
SPEAKER_02I said Monday. So uh big thanks to Colleen Bashar. Uh, how the art of curiosity transforms leadership from Forbes.
SPEAKER_03Greg, how does it feel to be back? Oh, it feels great to be back.
SPEAKER_02Back in Bucks County. Back in Bucks County, back on the podcast. Another year older, another year wiser. We'll see. We'll see about that. It's still up for debate there. Up for debate. So uh we need some feedback from our listeners on these uh on the jingles.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, people like the variety. I mean, do they like variety? Yeah. I think the the old one got tired. Yeah. Thank God for Suno. I know, exactly. All right.
SPEAKER_02Put these together this morning. Okay, so here's here's our closing one. You ready? Here we go.
SPEAKER_00It's mum bum. It's bum.
unknownIt's mum bum.
SPEAKER_03It's so corny. I love it. I love it.
SPEAKER_00Please lay on when the paths are clear. When mistakes feel near, strong and hard, steady and spark. This is laid on with Greg and Mark. Later. When mistakes feel near, strong and hard. Steady and spark. This is laid on with Greg and Mark.
SPEAKER_02You like other rig, eh, Greg? Oh, I like it, man. I read. Alright, brother. Alright. Have a good one, buddy.
